The "Sirac" issue... Options

[Patch]

Good Morning All,

I trust you are well, My name is Elan, and while not akin to many of the luminaries so here gathered I have known Sirac for a very very long time, and I have tried to help him over the years expand and widen his moral standpoint, and I hope that I have helped him be a more rounded being, though I am sure he will disagree. Suffice it to say, I believe I know him, or at least the root of the man well. Thus it is from a position of friendship and respect I say...

I do not believe Sirac can be trusted with the decision to sacrifice his own life.

As a knight, it is my duty to protect my brother, even from himself, and as his friend it is my honor to stand by him in these terrible times...

Now, while I am not suggesting someone else take that choice, for I know we cannot actually stop the daft old fool from doing something reckless if he choses to, I do think we need to accept and think about the fact that this is exactly the kind of thing that our enemy wants and that Sirac, with such a well defined and rigid "heroic" nature, has been targeted precisely because he would be willing to forever sacrifice himself. We should be wary of allowing Sirac to pursue this option, and we should not be entertaining it.

He (Sirac) needs us at this time to support him and to help him see a different path, we must not humor his "heroism" as it will lead only to his needless death. As Sonasello has rightly stated in his document, we are Mercenaries of Labyrinthia, and we find another way.

I hope this can be read in the spirit it is intended. I am not attacking Sirac, rather I want to see him protected, from himself, as much as from this Sinsanium fellow.

My Best wishes to all

Elan

[Netheril]

Thank you Elan, I think!

And I appreciate that, just maybe, I have taught you to care a bit more for others!

But I will copy, and add to, what I wrote elsewhere:

Whilst I thank you for the sentiment, it will not suffice.

What is needed is a clear plan of action with a good chance of victory. At this time, all options I see carry too great a risk of failure. A stalemate between Sinsanium and I could threaten the Throne, although I would re-target the rites at myself if I felt that were the case, it is still a risk.

More importantly if Sinsanium won, I would still be destroyed, it would empower him and he would go on to attack everyone and everything I have ever cared for. And perhaps more importantly, him and the council he leads would be a major hindrance to attempts to re-anchor Labyrinthia after Octuar.

This path at least ensures his destruction too, so that will not happen. And not just his destruction, but the only possibility of his rebirth and redemption. I would wish for that to be allowed, if this is the path I must walk.

And failing to make this sacrifice now means all our efforts for the next few months must go into securing and holding at least 11 ritual sites. Meaning we are not able to put as much effort into preparing for what comes after.

And I do not currently believe, now they are prepared and fully fore-warned, that I can state with any certainty we can secure 11 sites in time. We have tried twice so far and not even got close.

The sacrifice also ritually fuels our attempts to re-anchor Labyrinthia. And to create an exostance tree to help prevent the greater issue, of countless worlds facing destruction.

It is NOT my nature to admit defeat like this. I would FAR rather go down fighting, if I am to be defeated. But there is too much at risk here, for my personal preferences to matter.

I have not given up. I am attending a meeting in a week's time. There are few mercenary groups in the land that can overcome these divine beings and their troops in direct confrontations. But there are some. If they can and will aid us, then I just might be able to step back from this decision, and I will gladly do so!

Your speculation that he "chose" me for this confrontation because of your views of my...naivety are misplaced. There is some sort of cosmic balance allegedly at work here. He sees himself as my opposite, and believes one of us must be destroyed. He is entirely unhinged. But I do perhaps hold some responsibility for this. My flaw...is what has been recreated in him. Unforeseen, impossible to have known, but nonetheless...

Sirac

[DavidFisher]

Just to add some weight to Sirac's words

- we tried to get to a rebirth ritual point on the last mission. It was kinda hard... in the end, the enemy let us get there in return for some of Sirac's vitae (believing the benefits we would gain were less than the joy of him dying)

- the group was some of the most potent mercenaries around (I ain't bigging up the team here, just saying what I believe). Many of this team used all their tricks to stay alive and then decided to leave / hide. The enemy were real clever - shifting after you, going into floors and other planes if you disappeared and all with ranger eyes and godlike powers. If you had special ways to die, they did it. If you could only be hurt after someone enacted their faith, they did it. For example, one set could only be hurt by god blades and powers but only killed by a divine hand of purity, banishment and putrification (which they used divine pure force to prevent)

- we failed to secure a ritual site. I simply so not believe many other groups would be able to help out securing one of the 11 ritual sites based on this

Sirac isn't being dramatic
The defenses got so much harder after the announcement about what we were up to

If someone has a plan, great... otherwise Sirac has a way to sort of win (we can go on to win at least) and no one else has yet offered up an alternative.

Asgrimm

[JackFlashblade]

Wise words Elan.

The whole situation seems like a trap to get Sirac to end his existence.

I was strongly against him taking the offer to call off some of their forces in exchange for his vitae. It did not feel like the mercenary way.

In retrispect i think he made the right choice. At that point Uriel had fallen twice. Cathbad had been blown to pieces. I had sacrificed a part of my vitae in order to renew my powers, and i suspect another in our group had done so also.

I cant see how we could have continued without his sacrifice.

I have done my share of defending Primus at the Dawn with Purple company, and this was like nothing i have ever seen.

I think we would have been fine if not for the announcement.

As such, i expect future action to be more manageable, as long as we can avoid similar situations.

I think someone suggested on Sunsday the idea of a powerful group trying to take one of the lenses, shortly before a less powerful group tries to take an easier one, when hopefully the Purple band will have attracted most of our enemies attention.

This may have been discussed elsewhere. I fear that not even my own quite considerable will to live is sufficient to read through all the recent missives on the subject.


Anyway, i no longer have vitae to spare, so i will fade away, and leave the burning out to the likes of Sirac.

Lightarch

[Patch]

Thank you all Three of you for your response, and please understand I wish in no way to belittle the unfathomable power of those you faced to help save us all, or indeed yourselves for each of you are legend.

Only that Sirac's need to be the self sacrificing hero is "Baked in" and we must realise that, his/your language over the past few days has been deeply defeatist, and while I respect his/your assertion that he/you would rather not die "for the cause" it does not frankly read that way when you read behind the lines.

More over why do we trust a Madman to actually die once Sirac blows himself to bits?

We are not talking about turning on the Wheel here, we are talking about an end to Sirac's functional immortality and an end to his entire existence, I'm not sure that should come to pass until there is no other option and I don't think we can trust Sirac to make that decision free from the emotional responsibility he believes he bears... At the very least he should have council and help before he comes to that decision.

Elan

[Netheril]

Thank you all Three of you for your response, and please understand I wish in no way to belittle the unfathomable power of those you faced to help save us all, or indeed yourselves for each of you are legend.

Only that Sirac's need to be the self sacrificing hero is "Baked in" and we must realise that, his/your language over the past few days has been deeply defeatist, and while I respect his/your assertion that he/you would rather not die "for the cause" it does not frankly read that way when you read behind the lines.

More over why do we trust a Madman to actually die once Sirac blows himself to bits?

We are not talking about turning on the Wheel here, we are talking about an end to Sirac's functional immortality and an end to his entire existence, I'm not sure that should come to pass until there is no other option and I don't think we can trust Sirac to make that decision free from the emotional responsibility he believes he bears... At the very least he should have council and help before he comes to that decision.

Elan

The only way I can prove you wrong, is through the speed at which I will step away from the abyss IF anyone comes up with a suggestion / plan that convinces me and my family that it is viable.

No I dont trust Sinsanium at all. I do trust that it is very unlikely he can "cheat death" when it is Lord Jesiah he is making the deal with. Nonetheless this is a question I have asked a day or two ago and await a response.

You were not there when this plan was first suggested. You have not seen my disgust and abhorrence at the fact that it is actually necessary. This was not something I did with any eagerness. I refused at first. It took me more than a day of soul searching, and discounting all other options, before I eventually came to the conclusion that to be true to my oaths, and to all I have ever believed, I did indeed have little choice.

But now the choice is made, I am not going to wail and gnash my teeth about it. There is work to be done, whatever happens.

Sirac

[dhurrell]

Whose "Jez" tha' came up with this plan? The only one I've heard of that's renowned is that Lord Blackheart fella, one of those Tryst folks and I'm guessing it's not him?
I just won't ask questions about th meta ma physics stuff...

Barra'

[Netheril]

Whose "Jez" tha' came up with this plan? The only one I've heard of that's renowned is that Lord Blackheart fella, one of those Tryst folks and I'm guessing it's not him?
I just won't ask questions about th meta ma physics stuff...

Barra'

Jez is indeed my brother knight, Lord Blackheart.

Sirac

[Alasdair]

Sir

I agree.

How can I help?

Viridian Silk

Good Morning All,

I trust you are well, My name is Elan, and while not akin to many of the luminaries so here gathered I have known Sirac for a very very long time, and I have tried to help him over the years expand and widen his moral standpoint, and I hope that I have helped him be a more rounded being, though I am sure he will disagree. Suffice it to say, I believe I know him, or at least the root of the man well. Thus it is from a position of friendship and respect I say...

I do not believe Sirac can be trusted with the decision to sacrifice his own life.

As a knight, it is my duty to protect my brother, even from himself, and as his friend it is my honor to stand by him in these terrible times...

Now, while I am not suggesting someone else take that choice, for I know we cannot actually stop the daft old fool from doing something reckless if he choses to, I do think we need to accept and think about the fact that this is exactly the kind of thing that our enemy wants and that Sirac, with such a well defined and rigid "heroic" nature, has been targeted precisely because he would be willing to forever sacrifice himself. We should be wary of allowing Sirac to pursue this option, and we should not be entertaining it.

He (Sirac) needs us at this time to support him and to help him see a different path, we must not humor his "heroism" as it will lead only to his needless death. As Sonasello has rightly stated in his document, we are Mercenaries of Labyrinthia, and we find another way.

I hope this can be read in the spirit it is intended. I am not attacking Sirac, rather I want to see him protected, from himself, as much as from this Sinsanium fellow.

My Best wishes to all

Elan

[Naga]

So …

Need a plan to not let Sirac die!

Will get it sorted , not having you dead

Mo

[dhurrell]

Jez is indeed my brother knight, Lord Blackheart.

Sirac

Ah. I was about ta say it seemed convenient that a member of a church renowned for making bargains wit' demons an' sacrificing souls suggested the utter destruction of your soul as a solution. But if he's a Brother Knight it must be legit.

That's why I'm just a simple farming lad! Not tha sharpest tool in tha shed me.

Jus' let me know if summin' needs stabbin' wit' me spear.

Barra'

[Netheril]

Ah. I was about ta say it seemed convenient that a member of a church renowned for making bargains wit' demons an' sacrificing souls suggested the utter destruction of your soul as a solution. But if he's a Brother Knight it must be legit.

That's why I'm just a simple farming lad! Not tha sharpest tool in tha shed me.

Jus' let me know if summin' needs stabbin' wit' me spear.

Barra'

Whilst I would expect to, and should be able to, say that being a knight is sufficient for me to trust that the oath of brotherhood will prevent any fear of betrayal being necessary, that is sadly no longer the case.

Nonetheless, I do not feel this with regard to Jez. The simple truth is even if I am wrong, the plan works. And that is what matters, unless a better plan is found and decided upon.

Sirac

[Helsvell]

We are mercenaries and the talk of utter destruction is not really true. I do not wish for Sirac to turn the wheel and be reborn but as a mercenary he will almost certainly return. I dont think any of us should trivially throw away vitae. However it was gifted to us so we could take risks to make a difference. Ultimately it is Sirac's choice and he will choose what he believes is the correct path.

Raziel

[Patch]

Sir

I agree.

How can I help?

Viridian Silk

Well,

I believe that Sirac believes he does not wish to die...

Yet he seems firmly convinced at the moment that it is the best path to salvation that is open to us.

I can't claim to have anything like the power or insight of those who have commented here and if it was Lord Blackhearts suggestion then I am sure that he sees much more than I. I suspect all we can do is help Sirac find a better option, and for the time being not pander to Sirac's current maudlin state of mind.

Elan

[Patch]

We are mercenaries and the talk of utter destruction is not really true. I do not wish for Sirac to turn the wheel and be reborn but as a mercenary he will almost certainly return. I dont think any of us should trivially throw away vitae. However it was gifted to us so we could take risks to make a difference. Ultimately it is Sirac's choice and he will choose what he believes is the correct path.

Raziel

You miss-understand, it is clear that if Sirac does this he will not turn on the wheel... he will be gone... forever gone... He accepts this and he understands it and has agreed to it as a possible consequence.

If all that was at stake was his Vitae I would not be saying anything... A mercenaries death is meaningless, we are all functionally immortal, our deaths do not matter it is only our lives that make a difference.

This is not that... this is an end to Sirac's immortality, it is and end to him, he will be gone... his death will be perfect, complete.

Elan

[Helsvell]

You miss-understand, it is clear that if Sirac does this he will not turn on the wheel... he will be gone... forever gone... He accepts this and he understands it and has agreed to it as a possible consequence.

If all that was at stake was his Vitae I would not be saying anything... A mercenaries death is meaningless, we are all functionally immortal, our deaths do not matter it is only our lives that make a difference.

This is not that... this is an end to Sirac's immortality, it is and end to him, he will be gone... his death will be perfect, complete.

Elan

This is not what I understood from the discussions at the time it was first raised. Sirac, is this correct?

Raziel

[Netheril]

This is not what I understood from the discussions at the time it was first raised. Sirac, is this correct?

Raziel

Unfortunately this is correct. See the divinations chamber where I have written the answer from my parents concerning this.

Sirac

[Netheril]

So, a couple of new developments that buy a little time.

Firstly, a bit of an explanation. Last Sunsday our mission was to take Elzabeth to a very special ritual chamber. Where she could be reborn and be free of her oath, allowing her to translate the exostance map which did indeed allow us to locate and scry about the ritual sites. And fully aid us, with troops etc.

This was meant to be a secretive mission. For reasons well known by now it was not. This was the only place that Elzabeth could be freed, and our enemies knew this had to be our next step. When we began the approach and I found how severe the opposition was I spoke with her, and she explained all this and said they were obviously waiting for us.

It is thus my belief / hope that the forces we met far exceeded what they can have in place guarding all 21 sites. The degree of opposition we encountered has greatly fuelled the belief of my family that we cannot do what needs to be done.

There are thus now 3 new factors. The above consideration. I hope to speak with prospective allies for securing sites. And I hope to arrange an evening “forum” for all interested to meet in person and discuss options and plans, and coordinate our efforts. And for those who wish to meet Elzabeth and Bi’Lak you can. This looks very likely for the 19th of next month.

As such, Jez and I spoke yesterday. And our plan now is sometime soon, we will call together the Brood. I obviously am not going to announce when, or any details of which site, after the recent disaster. But that mission we will win. Whatever it takes. And when Jez says that…well suffice to say few can promise that with more certainty. We will do whatever is necessary to secure one of the more challenging sites.

Thus our bargaining power is if anything strengthened. Removing my worries that the chance to make the deal with Sinsanium might be lost. And most importantly, we will get a clearer picture of what is actually needed to capture these sites. And whether it really is going to be achievable to capture and hold all 11.

If it is the case that the opposition is as overwhelming as has seemed to be the case on this strike, then the plan undoubtedly remains the same. I expect by the end of next month to have that answer.

I should perhaps make clear that anyone I do not know entering my tower I have been challenging, from the moment we opened to you all for these talks. And this in particular I am telling only those of you I truly trust. As such this information is as secure as I can make it. But nonetheless I am keeping the specifics to myself until the day we attack.

Sirac