Dungeon Marking Guide, Some thoughts Options

[RichardCraig]

Dungeon Marking Guide

I’m writing this to give referees some guidance on what goes through my head when I mark dungeons, happy for people to discuss and give their thoughts on if they agree or not.

What do I mark down for?

No ISP set

No ISP setting (or lazy setting with merchants in encounter 2) if there is no ISP set how can anybody get it?
ISP doesn’t necessarily have to be 100% specific – specifying where somebody can potentially get something is good enough with a little description – supernatural sword could be magic or spirit is good – item could be here is bad.
Not having anything set just makes me think that it is a supermarket sweep in the car park after the dungeon ends, everybody on the dungeon should have a fair chance to get the ISP. Which is why traders with all the ISP doesn’t get my thumbs up either as then it’s just crafters and/or the first person with their wallet out that gets the ISP.

Poor organisation

Once you get down to run your dungeon it is likely that you’ll be handing off your dungeon to an aref who has never read it and hoping that they can set everything and get it prepped while you do the admin, or you’ve set it all and you’ve then got to give the dungeon to your monsters to read in the dark while you head off to herd the party around. Everybody’s day will be better if your dungeon is easy to follow, has a map with encounters/clear description of what is going on etc..

Coherent plot

If I read the dungeon and have no idea what is going on then how are the party and monsters going to make sense of it.
Things like actually having details of what the brief is going to say, rather than ‘I will play this’, clear details of factions and their motivation, an overview of what the party are trying to achieve are all good things.
Not having these means that good/bad guys can quickly become one dimensional as nobody really knows their motivation beyond the ref.

Mix of encounters

There really should be something for everybody during the day, we are of course a combat heavy system so combat encounters will always make up the majority of them but in order to have the correct flow to the day you do need to break these up, a common mistake I see if having 6 fights in a row which are just stats, when put into practice a fight can last as little as 30 secs so those 6 encounters can be over in 5 mins but they should take up 25% of a section.

Not enough encounters

Really you should have 20 encounters a section where the party have to do something, there is a bit of leeway if an encounter has 5 parts for example.
Things that I don’t count as an encounter are: if there is just a description, if it is just a description of an area effect, the brief.

Bad statting

I have written elsewhere about what refs should expect at different levels of dungeon, remember it is really hard to get into ac12 as a non warrior subclass pre 3K!

Copy and paste

Whilst some level of re-occuring encounters are fine there is a point where there is too much copy and paste, examples of this are where the party fights various elementals/demons where the stats are the same but the colour of power has just been changed between them.

Complexity suitable to the level of the dungeon

Players are by and large a clever bunch of people a lot of them have been playing for far too long, and as the points threshold goes up the things they can do as players increases exponentially. And so dungeons need to respond to this, once we are at 5250 upwards in order to effectively challenge players encounters need to be multi layered with different skill sets needed – area effects, scout challenges, defenders, multi part rituals, translation, roleplay encounters, timed effects are all tolls which can be mixed and matched so that encounters both challenging and engaging – just walking along dealing with some lines is neither of these once you get past 1500pts.

The flip side of this is low level dungeons need to capture some of this but also be aware that parties of that level can’t do everything and have limited power – my advice is always write what you want but always have a harder option if people can’t do the necessary power base.

One dimensional bad guys

Just because an encounter is going to end up in violence doesn’t mean that they don’t have something say before they die, a lot of dungeons you just see – golems, elementals, undead etc – which all have their place but you can rarely have a chat with them. Having a well thought out bad guy(s) means that what could have been a 30 sec fight turns into a 5min moral quandary as the latest cult describes their fairly reasonable motivations – ending hunger by turning everybody into undead for example.

Good ideas

Writing a dungeon isn't just a tick box exercise sometimes doing something completely off the wall will give the players a much more enjoyable day than a by the book adventure, so don't feel like you will be marked down for trying something new.

Overall

Wring dungeons I think is the hardest part of being a ref so thank you for everybody who does do it!

Let me know what you love to see or hate to see in dungeons below.

[JulianW]

Can you link to any notes on statting Rich?
(wanting sanity check / benchmark some of my thoughts)

[henghasty]

Can I just comment on the no ISP set point. I take the point that if one has ISP randomly thrown out that is rubbish but in the first age ISP tended to be earnt rather than set. My favourite item of all time was Trog's item of boots of immunity to bind given to him at the end of a day of being utterly ruined by monsters with bind.

Setting ISP also can reward the ISP thieves rather than perhaps those more deserving.

That said I agree merchants selling ISP or letting players choose is rubbish.

[Carlo]

I think that on the ISP side of things. It is important to have some written into the dungeon, but to also hold some back for the cool stuff that happens and to reward players being cool rather than players being grabby.

I see them as a reward for coolness rather than an opportunity for people to be grabby, as let’s face it. No one likes that.

I think it would be fair to write some into the dungeon, but don’t think it’s fair to be penalised for holding some back to award for coolness.

The cool player doing the dungeon and is involved can get a max of 95 points.
The rubbish player who focusses on grabbing might get 85 points but end up with 60ISP.

Anyways, great guide and certainly helps so thanks for putting it together. Just wanted to voice that I’d rather refs DIDNT set all their isp and urge them to save some for coolness over grabbiness.

Thanks

Carlo

[henghasty]

I think that on the ISP side of things. It is important to have some written into the dungeon, but to also hold some back for the cool stuff that happens and to reward players being cool rather than players being grabby.

I see them as a reward for coolness rather than an opportunity for people to be grabby, as let’s face it. No one likes that.

I think it would be fair to write some into the dungeon, but don’t think it’s fair to be penalised for holding some back to award for coolness.

The cool player doing the dungeon and is involved can get a max of 95 points.
The rubbish player who focusses on grabbing might get 85 points but end up with 60ISP.

Anyways, great guide and certainly helps so thanks for putting it together. Just wanted to voice that I’d rather refs DIDNT set all their isp and urge them to save some for coolness over grabbiness.

Thanks

Carlo

I quite agree a really useful guide.

My comment may have been driven by the fact Craigy is currently marking a dungeon of mine in which I forget to set the ISP

[Dave]

as an a ref more than ref.


Lee does this and it’s so useful

Stats
Stats
Stats


TO SET : 2 skulls

When you are quickly reading, this can be so useful to have

Having a ritual in the block of description isn’t helpful and can be missed

[BBB]

When I used to ref I tried to list all the props needed at the start of the dungeon in the kit list along with which encounters the are needed for split into "Props to get for the Armoury" and "Props I will be providing" (usually scruffy scrolls cos I'm terrible at making props beyond scrolls)

Then also I do the "To Be Set" block and "Monster Notes" sometimes to highlight key bits that I don't want to be missed by the monsters. Anything that makes the A-Ref's life smoother when setting, such as labelled maps / encounters is really helpful

BBB

[DavidFisher]

I list props in red as the first line after the encounter title

Hoz has pointed out I need to number my pages

I always put dying effects last and bold / red them to try to ensure they are identified by monsters

Monster stats I put in the an outlined box with a grey background, always in the same format

Finally, having the adventure written well in advance means I can email it to the monsters / a-ref for them to read. Final stats may change in the week leading up to the event as players come and go but the main plot and adventure themes are there

I print 4 copies for use on the day and always do a map with the encounters marked upon it

David

[ThomI]

Something I've started doing when writing is read back through my dungeon with all of the descriptive text stripped out (so just monster stats, what wardings do, etc) to make sure my themes are clear. If I can get a solid sense of location and adversaries/wildlife/culture then we're good to go, but more often than not I realise that one side is lacking. It's all very well saying that area A looks like a castle overwhelmed by undead but if my encounters and mechanics don't reflect that the players won't walk away feeling that -- I had plenty of cool undead encounters but none that evoked the castle as a setting. A suit of animated armour, a secret door in the throne room, and a puzzle using a tapestry instead of a scroll were all that was needed, but I wouldn't have made those changes because in my head it was obvious we were in a castle (I wrote it countless times in the description text).

I've found it a useful system for making sure my dungeons feel right.

[Cildan]

One thing i have found helpful when crewing is notes on 5he role play of an encounter i.e. greedy, polite, up for a fight for 4 examples

[RichardCraig]

With regards to ISP - it doesn't always have to be a 'thing' - as people say you might want to leave some aside for allocation or have things like - who ever deals with this puzzle/challenge gets XYZ or this is a dying effect - as long as there is some premeditation on where the ISP is going rather than there being no opportunity in the day to accumulate it.

[Patch]

I list props in red as the first line after the encounter title

Hoz has pointed out I need to number my pages

I always put dying effects last and bold / red them to try to ensure they are identified by monsters

Monster stats I put in the an outlined box with a grey background, always in the same format

Finally, having the adventure written well in advance means I can email it to the monsters / a-ref for them to read. Final stats may change in the week leading up to the event as players come and go but the main plot and adventure themes are there

I print 4 copies for use on the day and always do a map with the encounters marked upon it

David

Just a note, if you are reading the dungeon without a torch in the "Red" lights that are prevelant in the cave now, red print can be very hard to read. (I have a whole evil prayer book written in red for Elan... and can barely make out half of it in the red lights lol)

Patch

[Ryan]

Just a note, if you are reading the dungeon without a torch in the "Red" lights that are prevelant in the cave now, red print can be very hard to read. (I have a whole evil prayer book written in red for Elan... and can barely make out half of it in the red lights lol)

Patch

Some joker recently brought me well equipped magic scrolls we needed in red pen written on green paper… horrific.