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Labyrinthe Forum > General Discussion - OOC > Yellow Paper
Elferrick
Has anyone managed to YP archer so that it's for H rather than MP. Didn't really want to make a non-standard when archer pretty much does the trick.

I have no bow and I'm already using throwing knives.
Jasper
QUOTE(Elferrick @ Jul 16 2015, 10:21 AM) *
Has anyone managed to YP archer so that it's for H rather than MP. Didn't really want to make a non-standard when archer pretty much does the trick.

I have no bow and I'm already using throwing knives.



It has been done a number of times over the years, but not for a while* afaik. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me, as a bunch of little knives are a lot easier to carry around and far less hassle than a bow and arrows, as well as being quicker.


J
*like two or three GSMs ago
Estarriol
QUOTE(Jasper @ Jul 16 2015, 10:31 AM) *
It has been done a number of times over the years, but not for a while* afaik. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me, as a bunch of little knives are a lot easier to carry around and far less hassle than a bow and arrows, as well as being quicker.
J
*like two or three GSMs ago


Agree on all points.

It also makes far less sense given the massive power differential between a bow and a thrown knife. I'd find it somewhat immersion-breaking even in a high-fantasy system.

If it was me I'd go for a lower max damage and more trick effects, and I'd be building it as a second or third string to a character's bow (ho ho) rather than the main point of the character.
BBB
Most GSMs have been heavily against it or for good reason.

When passed its usually been fairly restrictive.

Basically you are not going to get no max damage for throwing daggers.

There is a lot if real world skill involved with a bow (as any who have seen me with one will attest to...)

BBB
Trickyz
I agree with the above comments, it's much easier to throw knives than use a bow, also easier to carry and you can have lots of them. A knife thrower with Archer abilities could in theory render a frontline fairly useless other than as a shield wall. Imagine a ton of knives coming over a shield wall! I would imagine Lee would put some restrictions in to stop it from being too powerful.

I do think a knife throwing character is cool by the way and I do like the idea of it, I just think it could be a bit much with archer abilities.
Hulud
I like the 'trick shot' idea though.




Every suit of armour has a weak spot - all daggers are 'through' > all daggers are 'pure'

The walls of Jericho - able to find the weak spot in walls and bring them down with a single dagger

explosive daggers - works like cache

boomerang daggers - monsters have to give them back

poisoned hilt daggers - anyone who picks up a thrown dagger (to hilariously lob it back at you) takes a BV 6 from poison on the hilt (you have built up an immunity to 'Hilt Venom')

All in the reflexes - missile weapons shot or thrown at you can be deflected (you still take damage from arrows/bolts as per stoneskin)

cause fear - by lobbing a dagger at the feet of a monster you make them jump back and they are stunned for 10 seconds

reverse distancing - you get a damage points reduction when fighting anyone who is using something longer than a dagger as long as you are using a dagger (you fight inside their reach)

Elferrick
All very fair points. Was not looking for a power play but rather hopped to to have a cheap first multi class. I'd be happy with loosing the no max damage. But had hoped for accuracy or something similar given that you had put a lot of practice in.

Currently can't find my warriors book so I'm a bit stumped anyway.
BBB
QUOTE(Hulud @ Jul 16 2015, 11:52 AM) *
reverse distancing - you get a damage points reduction when fighting anyone who is using something longer than a dagger as long as you are using a dagger (you fight inside their reach)


No, it just leads to silliness and either just looks plain bad or looks infeasible... Even in the fantasy epitome of action films knife fighting is rarely used because it rarely looks any good (I can only think of two instances its looked impressive).

I think "Close Quarters Combat" was only been passed once and that in the dim and distant past.

BBB
Ryan
Without downing people's ideas the one thing that gets me with these characters is monsters resorting to picking them up and throwing them back - suddenly triples are being rained on the party wizard because someone failed to kill a monster with his 17 thrown knives... Always find it break down to a base level of 8 kids having a snow ball fight...

I find the genuine niche of thrown daggers the effects that could be delivered, blade venoms like paralysis or a rune priest delivering mania and the like to people with a simple app... Much more interesting I think than throwing 20 knives per encounter that don't seem to do much and then holding things up because you couldn't find ten of them in a dark cave and 4 people have stopped to help you find them

My two cents
PaulM
QUOTE(Ryan @ Jul 16 2015, 12:42 PM) *
Without downing people's ideas the one thing that gets me with these characters is monsters resorting to picking them up and throwing them back - suddenly triples are being rained on the party wizard because someone failed to kill a monster with his 17 thrown knives... Always find it break down to a base level of 8 kids having a snow ball fight...

I find the genuine niche of thrown daggers the effects that could be delivered, blade venoms like paralysis or a rune priest delivering mania and the like to people with a simple app... Much more interesting I think than throwing 20 knives per encounter that don't seem to do much and then holding things up because you couldn't find ten of them in a dark cave and 4 people have stopped to help you find them

My two cents



Completely agree with you on that one runed up daggers FTW wink.gif
Trickyz
I really like the trick shots idea, it's characterful.
Estarriol
QUOTE(Hulud @ Jul 16 2015, 11:52 AM) *
All in the reflexes - missile weapons shot or thrown at you can be deflected (you still take damage from arrows/bolts as per stoneskin)


+2 call-out points for the Big Trouble in Little China reference. Nice one.

"The Ol' Jack Burton technique" - If you are juiced up on a Hyper-Action potion and real-world catch an H-class weapon thrown at you you gain +5 damage grades and no max damage with than weapon against the thrower on the next throw within 2 seconds.

I may not be entirely serious here.

QUOTE
cause fear - by lobbing a dagger at the feet of a monster you make them jump back and they are stunned for 10 seconds


+1 cryptic point for an ability called "cause fear" that doesn't have a fear effect...
Estarriol
QUOTE(BBB @ Jul 16 2015, 12:03 PM) *
No, it just leads to silliness and either just looks plain bad or looks infeasible... Even in the fantasy epitome of action films knife fighting is rarely used because it rarely looks any good (I can only think of two instances its looked impressive).


Not disagreeing, but since you mentioned films I can think of four

Gangs of New York
The Hunted
Commando (although not much actual knife-work - more the weaponisation of pipes, furnace doors, bizarrely-exposed electrical grids and a very bad moustache)
Eastern Promises (although one-sided)

Any others that were really cool?
Abel
QUOTE(Estarriol @ Jul 16 2015, 01:19 PM) *
Commando (although not much actual knife-work - more the weaponisation of pipes, furnace doors, bizarrely-exposed electrical grids and a very bad moustache)

Any others that were really cool?

LET OFF SOME STEAM BENNET!
Trickyz
I think Kill Bill also has a good girl on girl knife fight.
Hulud
QUOTE(Trickyz @ Jul 16 2015, 01:56 PM) *
I think Kill Bill also has a good girl on girl knife fight.


Please turn 'girl on girl knife fight' into a Multiclass.

Jasper
I saw a pretty good knife fight at a bus stop a couple of years ago, does that count?


J
Mojo
I still have the scar from a very [----] one if it helps.
Trickyz
I did not think it was that common but I have a few rubbish knife scars from a couple of attempted muggings and working on the door. Thankfully nothing too serious.
TheFury
Few I've had in the past:

Pod shot- knock back, down and and fleeting spasm.
Pinning shot- 10 second bind to a limb in contact with a 'surface'
Shield pin- limb stun to the arm if hit a shield (probably not so relevant for a knife than bow)

Leo
Reams of throwing weapons are really cheesy. Having one or two you can lob are more flavorful than naff.

Standardly, you might want to look towards clan Buladajin. They get "the sharp wind" as standard on table 7 or thereabouts which makes all thrown weapons go through PAC. Do it as a warrior subclass and you can use mighty strike with either that ability or blade sharpening to lob a knife before each fight that would do 6 through.

I wrote this points app for a friend a few months ago based on having a single favorite throwing weapon, it might serve as inspiration.

QUOTE
A warrior’s tradition describes what they do between their mercenary weekends. Some serve in the army, some scratch out a living in the fields, while others live lives of constant high adventure. I am a goblin. I have a brick.

Tradition: Goblin with a Brick
From trusty old weapon.
All these abilities apply only to my trusty old brick, not to just any old bit of masonry.

I may no longer use a shield or a second weapon apart from my brick.

I may multiclass O class battlemaster and have all its abilities apply while I have my H class brick in my off hand, rather than only when it is empty or holding a shield as is standard.

If I purchase Weapon Master in an O class weapon, I do not lose the ability to use my brick.

I may buy called shot, accuracy and target prediction as archer, surprise blow as assassin and max damage quin in H as halfling, all of which only apply to my brick.

I may purchase both daring deed and flick of the wrist on table 7, with flick of the wrist only applying to attacks with my brick.

Cost: 50


From the above:

You can’t outbrick a brickie: I gain a 12 point damage reduction as per yadojumitsu vs attacks from my own brick. Cost: 10 Table: 1


Faith in a ceramic truth: Due to my overwhelming belief that a brick is enough to solve anything, 1/day a single attack from my brick is either +0 magic or spirit in a similar way to a primal strike.
Cost: 10 Table: 7 Max: 3
MattWest
When Mark Cox was GSM I applied for and had passed a faerie knife-thrower base class change. This did not give me no max damage as per Archer but instead gave me some fairly expensive options for good max damage increases at major table thresholds. I never played the character.

In 2012 I did a Candleston 3-day as my "monastically trained knife-thrower" who in mechanical terms was human (M/R Elder Fey 1) and by class a Monk doing Quad with thrown knives made of foam, which though attractive were really, really rubbish to throw (very short range, especially outdoors, very slow, easy to parry/dodge or just not notice).

I did this just to be playing something a bit different. We had an archer on the party too, whose ranged stuff was much more effective than mine.

During the 3-day the ref-team (including Andy Byatt; Phil Branscombe, then GSM, was playing the event) allowed me to increase my damage grade to 6.

I then purchased some lovely rubber throwing knives which have a fantastic range and applied, on the basis of the 3-day, for a knife-thrower multiclass. Originally this was meant to be written for me from on high (as an alternative to a 3-day item, since monks don't get items) but that never happened so in the end I wrote it myself and handed it in and it got passed. [ed] It came back to me as Max 8 beyond 10' at 6th after Phil had looked it over.

I have not played the character since but to the best of my recollection the spend I decided I would probably go for would have meant that (at 1770 points) the character could do Quin at ranges up to 10' and Eight at ranges beyond 10', with various add-ons like Accuracy, based on Archer buy-as [ed. 4 tables below] applied to H-class knives, the main difference being a cap on my Max Damage.

I can genuinely say that with foam throwing knives having no Max Damage beyond 10' would hardly be an issue because you'll be lucky if you can get them to go more than about 12' so that would be the very limit of your range and you would probably miss.

With rubber throwing knives however there is another issue which I recently discovered playing a 200ish points Budoka with +2 WM in H-Knife on the Bloody Corsairs dungeons. The rubber throwing knives I have are light compared to a cored weapon but significantly heavier than a foam weapon. They are black and go a long way. I threw one in the dark and it hit Fiona Mullin in the eye, removing her from the game while she recovered. About an hour later I threw one in bright lighting in the room with the boulder in it (over the wall which is on your left as you face the concrete dias), and unbelievably it hit her in the eye again.

That has pretty much put me off the idea of playing a knife-thrower, as I seem to be stuck with either using rubbish foam knives which go about 10 feet, or at risk of hitting people in the eye with the decent rubber ones.

I have also on occasion found it counter-immersive to be faffing around searching for throwing knives in the dark when my motivation for doing so is probably more the real-world cost of a throwing knife and less the character's goals. Having said that the 3-day at Candleston was absolutely wicked and totally immersive so obviously that's not a hard and fast rule.

Anyway if you are going to be playing a knife-thrower I recommend having Forearm Parry and UAC, but my money's on Budoka rather than Monk, just because the Monk restrictions regarding magic are super-tedious.

If you want to see my points apps I will bring them along next time I am down the Caves, if I remember and can find them.
Leo
I assume this as an excerpt from your upcoming autobiography "Totally addicted to H".
Fionamullin
Matt,
Thanks but tbh people sometimes need to generally consider height to height ratio, the height that Matt was throwing knives /my face.
Odd blows happen and are ok.
Its part of the game, it's only when it's persistant that it becomes an issue.
MattWest
Thanks for the reassurance Fi but it did remind me of the time I nearly killed someone by "bowling" in a game of cricket. Anyway maybe I will pick up the knives again at some point but as I say there are multiple issues with it.

Also, I should say, I really don't think anyone should worry about H-class being excessively effective, even if the damage grades were very high. It's so fiddly messing around with throwing knives and a lot of monsters don't seem aware of their locational hits anyway!!! But then again crossbows and bows are very awkward in the wrong situations, especially crossbows down the caves, so I guess even if swords are obviously better than thrown knives even with double the damage grade, you've still got to make sure that archers aren't totally outclassed at the one thing they're good at.

With me doing Eight at 1770 points, though, an archer (even 2nd class) still probably has the lead on damage grades by some distance.
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