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Abel
Hey collective brains!

Was looking into a Cavalier going into Wizard. Thought i'd tweek some stuff in while I'm in the yp mood. So here goes.


Arcane Bulwark
  1. Is 1st Colour Ivory, Must adhere to the Ivory Code, Gains all Standard Ivory Glyphs and Handbook Grey. May have 5 Specialist Glyphs, Recognise Mana, Warlock metal restrictions. Mana: 1
  2. All Armour while worn is counted (but is not) Magical for metal restrictions purposes. Mana: 4
  3. All Shields while held are counted (but is not) Magical for metal restrictions purposes. Mana: 9
  4. For the purposes of Self enhancing or Weapon enhancing spells counts as +2 casting levels Mana: 16
  5. Empower Armour – As per the Power Warrior ability (opposite “element” is Ebony), does not require “coloured armour”. Mana: 25
  6. For the purposes of Self enhancing or Weapon enhancing spells counts as +2 casting levels. Mana: 36
Post 6th Buy as 2nd class Warlock

I'd like to go for more mana, so I ignored the level 1 stage of Sorcerer, but the next stage is Wizard mana, and I think that would jump the cost up massively.

Thoughts?
MattJ
It looks a bit too good to me. It's multiclassing warlock effectively with more mana, no casting restrictions, no metal restrictions, empower armour and more mana.

Matt
DanM
Apply for a lvl 0 wizard that allows you to buy up metal tolerances or a tradition that lets you buy it before hand.
Build up enough tolerance, then go full beans wizard
MattJ
That sounds like the more sensible option to me as well.

Matt
Abel
QUOTE(MattJ @ Jan 20 2014, 12:53 AM) *
It looks a bit too good to me. It's multiclassing warlock effectively with more mana, no casting restrictions, no metal restrictions, empower armour and more mana.

Matt


True, I thought i'd put the whole "what I want" package up there to see what can be refined out of it.
DanM
QUOTE(Abel @ Jan 20 2014, 11:44 AM) *
True, I thought i'd put the whole "what I want" package up there to see what can be refined out of it.


The other option is use your MR.

Or MC that gives you innates instead of free mana?

Possibly a power-warrior variant?
Abel
QUOTE(DanM @ Jan 20 2014, 11:52 AM) *
The other option is use your MR.

Or MC that gives you innates instead of free mana?

Possibly a power-warrior variant?


Yeah innates is probably something I will go the route of tbh, in a similar vien to power warrior, but not.
Gordon
Simply go shopping.

Either obtain or get the grulls together to purchase +0 magic armour and a weapon in the short term until you can get post 6th, purchase metal tolerance or get empower armour etc.

When I first went Wizard as Amorphus many, many, years ago I had to get into Dac: 12 first, I think I only managed 11 and relied on Bluebottle being about to give me another +1 Dac from his Mark Ally! It's one of the reasons I haven't Pathed this time around.
DanM
QUOTE(Gordon @ Jan 20 2014, 01:43 PM) *
Simply go shopping.

Either obtain or get the grulls together to purchase +0 magic armour and a weapon in the short term until you can get post 6th, purchase metal tolerance or get empower armour etc.


Obvious, but expensive and mostly not an option for lower level characters unless they can get a rich sponsor willing to lend them 50k
Alasdair
QUOTE(DanM @ Jan 20 2014, 02:29 PM) *
Obvious, but expensive and mostly not an option for lower level characters unless they can get a rich sponsor willing to lend them 50k



Monster points items? And/or a post-Myths spend?
Gordon
QUOTE(DanM @ Jan 20 2014, 02:29 PM) *
Obvious, but expensive and mostly not an option for lower level characters unless they can get a rich sponsor willing to lend them 50k


When I say shopping I mean item hunting on dungeons, either arrange something specifically or just see what you can get, you never know you might find an NPC that sponsors you and rewards/knights you with a suit of armour such as you need. Roleplay can be a powerful tool.
Gordon
Or monster point cash.

People forget 5mps = G500. Not hard to gather up a decent horde if you have this in mind.
RichardCraig
I'd probably loose grey totally, you dont want to waste mana on dispels and empower armour gives you the mac that plate would have.

Maybe limit yourself to ivory only? or are you planning on 2nd colour brown?

Ultimately Ivory is all far too much mana to be any good so you having wizard mana is't that great/over powered?

Maybe you could do something that just gives you Ivory innates per level? Or maybe a power pool that you have to decide on at the beginning of the day? Justify by saying you have some magic armor which powers you/your allies up.

Don't know why you have buy as warlock, you already have buy as warrior so you might as well have buy as wizard in there? unless you want the elemental warlord stuff?

I think at the end of the day you just have to decide how many points you want to spend on it, 6th lv wiz is 1000pts, everything better than that is going to cost you points..

2lvs of casting 80pts
Magic armor - 200pts
Empower armor 300pts?
2 lots of increased metal tolerance 80pts
loose 6 mana - -20pts

If you want to spend 1600pts on going ivory wizard, why not!
Abel
QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Jan 20 2014, 06:27 PM) *
I'd probably loose grey totally, you dont want to waste mana on dispels and empower armour gives you the mac that plate would have.

Maybe limit yourself to ivory only? or are you planning on 2nd colour brown?

Ultimately Ivory is all far too much mana to be any good so you having wizard mana is't that great/over powered?

Maybe you could do something that just gives you Ivory innates per level? Or maybe a power pool that you have to decide on at the beginning of the day? Justify by saying you have some magic armor which powers you/your allies up.

Don't know why you have buy as warlock, you already have buy as warrior so you might as well have buy as wizard in there? unless you want the elemental warlord stuff?

I think at the end of the day you just have to decide how many points you want to spend on it, 6th lv wiz is 1000pts, everything better than that is going to cost you points..

2lvs of casting 80pts
Magic armor - 200pts
Empower armor 300pts?
2 lots of increased metal tolerance 80pts
loose 6 mana - -20pts

If you want to spend 1600pts on going ivory wizard, why not!


To be fair, this has definitely given me food for thought, innates seems to be the way forward, definatly going forward that way. Was planning 2nd gold if at all, but solo might make it cheaper. Cheers Rich, much to think on from this
fatteacher
Good luck with this points app. I look forward to comparing our finished products once the big red points pen has done its worst.

Andy
Abel
QUOTE(fatteacher @ Jan 20 2014, 09:42 PM) *
Good luck with this points app. I look forward to comparing our finished products once the big red points pen has done its worst.

Andy


Cheers fella, you too. smile.gif
MattWest
Empower Armour is something like +4 or +5 stacking MAC for you.

That's worth at least 600 or 750 points on its own, maybe more.

The reason Power Warriors get it is their insane restrictions - which could be interpreted as "kill everything of one alignment on sight, except fellow party members".

I once had an ebony drave ebony power warrior (which didn't really work from a roleplay point of view but I only discovered that too late). I think it would suit your character well to be an ivory power warrior. I definitely had head-scratchy and difficult restrictions.

The neat thing about being an ivory power warrior is that the innates are already indicated via the second colour ivory ability of standard power warriors (Mobility 1/day, Enhance Weapon 1/day, Ivory Warrior 1/day, further runes of Ivory Warrior at 40 points); 1st colour could be slightly better. Also it will hardly make any difference to your roleplay restrictions. And gives you buy as warrior on all tables (not capped at table 4 unlike cavalier). Well worth having.

Unfortunately there does not seem to be a standard option to multiclass power warrior for any character class. Possibly because they are too good - because of the MAC.

I would have thought that by analogy to MC paladin it should make you no longer bracket pure to MC power warrior.

If you aren't desperate for the +4/+5 MAC, you should go for a non-power-warrior solution, because the advantage of that MAC will be factored in, and you have enough restrictions already without having to massacre every ebony mana user you meet. Also being restricted from assisting ebony mana users who are party members could cause you problems in KOTL. On the other hand ebony mana users are quite good at disguising themselves which may let you off the hook sometimes... then again you would virtually have to announce yourself, and they could then have a greater incentive to get the drop on you from behind.

If you were Baronial you could go Vochstelen for 475 points to 6th and I think gain the ability to buy magical innates that way, with base metal allowance of plate mail plus bastard sword. I guess 600 points for an Imperial Vochstelen-equivalent trained to hunt outlaws (instead of Hedge). Replace the 6th level Sense Mana User ability with Magical Discern Criminal or something. Perhaps choose Silver instead of Grey as your colour (or Ivory, with code restrictions), which IMHO makes it worth 650 points to 6th as an Imperial. Bonus from MC Vochstelen is you can gain ELOLs at 5/2 per level, which makes your life almost on a par with Powerhouse.

If however you want to be useful to the Borderwatch why not consider MC Silver Warden? That is a listed MC for warrior (500 points for 6th), and would cover the neuronic angle which hasn't been covered lately (though we did have a psi-drowe on the first adventure IIRC). It fits the anti-extra-planar ethos in particular, gives you ELOLs @ 4/1 and gives you reasonable innates which are powered by life which you have in spades.
Abel
QUOTE(MattWest @ Jan 21 2014, 02:19 AM) *
Empower Armour is something like +4 or +5 stacking MAC for you.

That's worth at least 600 or 750 points on its own, maybe more.

The reason Power Warriors get it is their insane restrictions - which could be interpreted as "kill everything of one alignment on sight, except fellow party members".

I once had an ebony drave ebony power warrior (which didn't really work from a roleplay point of view but I only discovered that too late). I think it would suit your character well to be an ivory power warrior. I definitely had head-scratchy and difficult restrictions.

The neat thing about being an ivory power warrior is that the innates are already indicated via the second colour ivory ability of standard power warriors (Mobility 1/day, Enhance Weapon 1/day, Ivory Warrior 1/day, further runes of Ivory Warrior at 40 points); 1st colour could be slightly better. Also it will hardly make any difference to your roleplay restrictions. And gives you buy as warrior on all tables (not capped at table 4 unlike cavalier). Well worth having.

Unfortunately there does not seem to be a standard option to multiclass power warrior for any character class. Possibly because they are too good - because of the MAC.

I would have thought that by analogy to MC paladin it should make you no longer bracket pure to MC power warrior.

If you aren't desperate for the +4/+5 MAC, you should go for a non-power-warrior solution, because the advantage of that MAC will be factored in, and you have enough restrictions already without having to massacre every ebony mana user you meet. Also being restricted from assisting ebony mana users who are party members could cause you problems in KOTL. On the other hand ebony mana users are quite good at disguising themselves which may let you off the hook sometimes... then again you would virtually have to announce yourself, and they could then have a greater incentive to get the drop on you from behind.

Was considering power warrior, but it's not really the angle I was looking at, innates seem to be the best option (points and cash wise) but as a power warrior the biggest issue would be having to colour EVERYTHING I have Ivory, and tbh I rather not do that (especially with my armour).

You're right on the restriction thing, tbh, they are almost irrelevant to me as a cavalier as they are basically almost the same.

QUOTE(MattWest @ Jan 21 2014, 02:19 AM) *
If you were Baronial you could go Vochstelen for 475 points to 6th and I think gain the ability to buy magical innates that way, with base metal allowance of plate mail plus bastard sword. I guess 600 points for an Imperial Vochstelen-equivalent trained to hunt outlaws (instead of Hedge). Replace the 6th level Sense Mana User ability with Magical Discern Criminal or something. Perhaps choose Silver instead of Grey as your colour (or Ivory, with code restrictions), which IMHO makes it worth 650 points to 6th as an Imperial. Bonus from MC Vochstelen is you can gain ELOLs at 5/2 per level, which makes your life almost on a par with Powerhouse.

Hmm, interesting idea, but I don't see Xeno being a outlaw hunter, do you?

QUOTE(MattWest @ Jan 21 2014, 02:19 AM) *
If however you want to be useful to the Borderwatch why not consider MC Silver Warden? That is a listed MC for warrior (500 points for 6th), and would cover the neuronic angle which hasn't been covered lately (though we did have a psi-drowe on the first adventure IIRC). It fits the anti-extra-planar ethos in particular, gives you ELOLs @ 4/1 and gives you reasonable innates which are powered by life which you have in spades.

A Silver Warden?!? Two reasons why not
  1. Have you ever seen a Silver Warden? There is a reason...
  2. Cavaliers may not acquire Neuronics
MattWest
Hmm.

I see it as being a big problem for you to have an anti-ebony ethos if it means you can't assist ebony mana users because there are bound to be ebony mana users in KOTL and you are bound to come across them sooner or later then break your KOTL vow and potentially get cast out... as it is a hardwired class restriction "they will either ignore the opposed adventurer, or leave the adventure". Another alternative would be for you to leave the League of Munchkins* and join a proper Knightly Order such as the Knights of +1 MAC ;-)

However you would not have to colour everything ivory; you would have to decorate your armour as ivory (could be with ribbons etc.) and wear ivory clothes. Read the Empower Armour skill description - standardly power warrior armour to be empowered should have black or white designs, etc. Hence it does not have to be pure black or white, unlike basic clothing. My ebony power warrior got his MAC by tying black ribbon into his gun metal coloured chainmail. Hence I still have black ribbon holding my gun metal chainmail together to this day. I seem to recall the then GSM querying whether either of these colours was strictly ebony but c'mon, it seemed good enough to me. Anyway long time ago! Check the armour decoration point with GSM if in doubt as his interpretation may differ... or specify it in your yellow paper...

Regarding the cavaliers cannot acquire neuronics thing (re Silver Warden), I would have thought that you could points app your way around that, maybe taking some other restriction or something; don't know if you've used your tradition slot yet but there may be mileage there. That sort of hangover restriction from the days of cavaliers being a supplement class is, IMHO, not vital to the system, and if you are willing to actually enter the neuronics bracket then shouldn't be a problem. True you don't see many silver wardens about; you also don't see many psi-masters, but Fromant's psi-master is apparently rock hard, and I remember Duckhouse having a 1st class monk 1st class psimaster rebirth which he was very happy with. I reckon you could make Silver Warden work - neuronics can be a route to damage reductions [in your case based off Inertia Shield's +6 PAC?]. It's all about the buffs. 1st class silver wardens are handicapped by having relatively modest life but as a multiclass starting from a base of cavalier that problem disappears and you have great synergy between neuronics and your massive amount of life and silver warden ELOLs. I also like the idea of multirace neuronically animated suit of armour. You live in your suit of armour to such an extent you have let your body fade and the suit of armour replaces it.

As for "do I see Xeno as an outlaw hunter" (re Vochstelen-variant), well I guess only your answer to that has any bearing on the topic at all - but is there a category of character you could see Xeno hunting down? Perhaps because of the Border Watch connection extraplanar beings or those who summon them... you already have Discern Otherworldly Being from the guild, but you could apply for it as your 6th level ability, "and if already possessed from another source (even guild, but not item) is upgraded to blah blah blah". Or you could get Discern Summoner - discerns people who summon extraplanar entities, or evil extraplanar entities, mind you that's every evil priest with Necromancy tree miracles.

Finally to correct myself obviously the 2nd colour ivory standard innates may be what's appropriate to 8th level rather than 6th.



* I am just kidding everyone, please don't take this phrase seriously as a description of KOTL...
PaulM
Hi Mate,

Create a YP Vochstellen and enter the wizard bracket instead of buying grey innates may buy Ivory then 2nd colour blue which matches the horrible enemy on myths wink.gif use your multirace to bolster and improve this to gain a certain ammount of mana points to put into innates and then pick and choose what you need for the day

As a idea.



Paul,
Abel
QUOTE(PaulM @ Jan 21 2014, 01:49 PM) *
Hi Mate,

Create a YP Vochstellen and enter the wizard bracket instead of buying grey innates may buy Ivory then 2nd colour blue which matches the horrible enemy on myths wink.gif
As a idea.
Paul,


Xeno as the NPC was a Frost Wyrmkin, so blue wouldn't have matched, it would need to be ice, but I see where you are going
JasonE
I know it's probably a waste of YP but I've always had the idea of the mana equivalent of a Spirit Warrior, but then levels 1-6 would basically be nothing bar a few minor caster skills like read glyphs
MattWest
QUOTE(JasonE @ Jan 21 2014, 03:32 PM) *
I know it's probably a waste of YP but I've always had the idea of the mana equivalent of a Spirit Warrior, but then levels 1-6 would basically be nothing bar a few minor caster skills like read glyphs


Apologies if this misses the point somehow but that's basically what Vochstelen is (from the Dominion of the Circle book)... you get something like rec mana, read scrolls/glyphs, discern mana user 20' (at 6th I think), buy as warrior subclass and buy as 1st class grey wizard but no mana, with spirit warrior life, and massive metal allowance. The publication actually says something about them performing a similar role in the Baronies to spirit warriors in the Empire (though hunting fey and hedge, I infer with a quasi-religious fervour). The class got miscellaneously meandered (by MCC?) into being in the warrior bracket which wasn't originally the case, as well as in the wizard bracket. Something to do with game balance I think as the change makes no sense from a system logic point of view.

I have an Ishmaic Vochstelen-variant as a multiclass for my lizard wizard but it's a lot more points than MC Vochstelen (680 to 6th? whereas Baronial wizards can MC Vochstelen for about 500 to 6th) and isn't very good partly because I messed up writing it...
Rob
QUOTE(Abel @ Jan 19 2014, 11:28 PM) *
Hey collective brains!

Was looking into a Cavalier going into Wizard. Thought i'd tweek some stuff in while I'm in the yp mood. So here goes.
Arcane Bulwark
  1. Is 1st Colour Ivory, Must adhere to the Ivory Code, Gains all Standard Ivory Glyphs and Handbook Grey. May have 5 Specialist Glyphs, Recognise Mana, Warlock metal restrictions. Mana: 1
  2. All Armour while worn is counted (but is not) Magical for metal restrictions purposes. Mana: 4
  3. All Shields while held are counted (but is not) Magical for metal restrictions purposes. Mana: 9
  4. For the purposes of Self enhancing or Weapon enhancing spells counts as +2 casting levels Mana: 16
  5. Empower Armour – As per the Power Warrior ability (opposite “element” is Ebony), does not require “coloured armour”. Mana: 25
  6. For the purposes of Self enhancing or Weapon enhancing spells counts as +2 casting levels. Mana: 36
Post 6th Buy as 2nd class Warlock

I'd like to go for more mana, so I ignored the level 1 stage of Sorcerer, but the next stage is Wizard mana, and I think that would jump the cost up massively.

Thoughts?


You need to put immediatly available ivory not standard ivory to save confusion...
JasonE
Did not know about Vochstelen if it wasn't around about 15 years ago and in not the war, wiz, priest, scout books I haven't a clue. Might have to look into them. are they consider as harsh to play as spirit warriors or does magic give them an edge?
MattWest
Well I wouldn't consider myself the font of greatest wisdom on this matter, never having played one. But here goes.

I would say as a 1st class they are going to be one of the weaker ones at low points (below 1500). Basically spirit warrior minus, rather than spirit warrior plus. Magical innates are tremendously expensive for what you get, as a low-points character anyway, and they can't get mana points, and their colour is standardly grey. Having said that, 1st class grey wizard buy-as means things like Chromatic Wizard are theoretically possible if you want them. They could be a good base for multiracing golem early on, if you are that way inclined. Obviously they have good life which may work well in combination with Varial Caster (1st class grey wizard buy as!). But you would need a way of casting Grimoire glyphs (Damage Shield!), and you have no mana. Of course you could probably 2nd colour Ebony and get innates of the basic Ebony colours including Escape, Mists etc., or Bronze for Words of Death, etc. etc. Basically just look through the warrior subclass and 1st class grey wizard buy-as and ask yourself - can I make this work with permanently zero mana but spirit warrior life, platemail, sword and shield? My guess is at some stage you are going to spend 750 points multiclassing wizard to 6th level which presumably gives you mana, and end up considerably less hard than a 1st class warrior MC wizard, though with slightly better wizard buy-as, better ELOLs, a free discern and 250 spare points, and possibly a better casting level with mana.

When they were purely in the wizard bracket obviously they were a neat way for a Baronial wizard to get spirit warrior life and warrior subclass buy-as without using up a bracket. But that loophole has sadly now been plugged!

They are significantly clarified in Miscellaneous Meanderings. (Shield and weapon skills and brackets.)
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