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Ezrekia
Hi guys,

I know you're quite keen to hear from newbies about how you can make it easier for us to get into Labyrinthe, so I thought I'd offer a couple of suggestions on the publications.

Obviously, they need to be written in a reasonable amount of jargon, and a stubborn mite like me will be quite happy to persevere with this. I think quite a lot of people might have been put off by this though, and I do think that a beginners' guide would really benefit the club. Without meaning to sound rude, there are several bits that are ambiguous due to dodgy grammar* and this could be quite easily resolved and make the information more easily digestible.

I've also found several instances where skills have been described as having the same effect as another, from a different skill set. For example, I was reading through my Druid handbook last night, and one skill was claimed to be an EP-user version of a Wizard spell. There was no explanation of what this actually meant, so in order to fully understand the Druid handbook, one must cross-reference with the Wizards' handbook. To an experienced player this might be fine, but as someone struggling to get to grips with the system in its most basic form this is a real nuisance. It would be fab if you could look at putting descriptions in full, rather than requiring the reader to cross reference.

Furthermore, the idea of cross-referencing skills between handbooks is only possible if you actually have all of the handbooks. If we need to constantly hop between publications to make sense of what is meant by the one we wish to play, can I advise that you look in to some way of making it easier to complete the set? I know you said that to publish the entire catalogue in one document was not feasible, and I can certainly see why, but why not consider selling a copy of each class's handbook in a bumper pack for a slightly lower price? I've decided to pick and choose as I can only play non-combat characters, but had a complete set been available I would certainly have favoured that. I like complete sets, me.

Finally, something that would be really useful would be something along the lines of a concordance, which need only be the contents lists from each publication in one volume, which would allow the new user to find all of the information much more easily. For example, I was wondering about whether it would be possible to play a Ranger if I could use long-distance weapons, so bought the Druid handbook to find out. Of course, Rangers are covered in the Warrior's handbook but I had no way of knowing this until I had already purchased the Druid handbook, by which point I figured that I probably couldn't, and gave up trying. I still don't know whether I actually can.

None of this is meant to be miserable and grumpy; it is all meant to be constructive feedback from someone struggling to get my head around the system and hope that it will be taken as such.

Sally xx

*Sorry, grammar is what I do. I'm always happy to help proof-reading and translating almost to Crystal Mark standard. I know I'm not there today, but my brain is frozen and I got very little sleep last night. Long story.
Godseed
I think the quirky grammar, spelling, and um - labyrinthine - cross-referencing in Labyrinthe publications is half the fun... it's a little like reading Crowley. rolleyes.gif

(Sarcasm aside, I agree wholeheartedly will all of your suggestions.)

Ah, and Rangers get the MP skill at 2nd level, so yes, you could play a ranger solely at range!
StuartEaston
It would probably be considered quite difficult to play any class solely at range, especially in the caves where thigns are at quite close quarters generally. Being an archer makes you quite a high target for most monsters, especially if you just shot his mates, and therefore can be quite combat-y. That being said there is nothing to stop you playing a ranger with only ranged weapons but once a monster gets close to you it could be quite diffcult to escape or kill it.

Stuart
BBB
There is a simple reason why the books refer to each other so much and cannot easily be got round.

When I used to do a fair amount of editing of books I would tend to add in the exact description of abilities wherever they referenced other abilities rather than having it say As X. However whilst the system is very fluid the books tend to get updated regularly one at a time and not at the same instance.

This actually lead to more confusion whereby the base ability got redefined but the duplicate didn't so they could wind up intending to do one thing and having two separate definitions.

We even had one situation where two rules books were updated at the same time by different editors with the odd result that one old standard ability I fully copied the definition across to one book unware that the definition had changed and the GSM unaware that I'd copied it over.

Yes, it is a bit of a pain to have to cross reference BUT its less of a pain than the situation whereby you have to check which is the newer publication and therefore has the correct definition especially as you might not know its been changed in the most recent rulebook.

Its one of those things that happen with a constantly evolving game when the rules updated relatively frequently but the rule books are not updated at once (which would represent a pretty vast endeavour).

The idea of a complete set of books for a discount is an interesting one but I suspect that sho few people would be interested / able to shell out on that many at once that it would be a bit redundant, prehaps a buy 5 get 1 other free deal might work, I don't know the economics of the rulebooks.

BBB
Ezrekia
QUOTE(Godseed @ Mar 6 2011, 03:51 PM) *
I think the quirky grammar, spelling, and um - labyrinthine - cross-referencing in Labyrinthe publications is half the fun...


I agree wholeheartedly with your comments too biggrin.gif Or at least I will, once I figure out the things I need to know!


QUOTE(StuartEaston @ Mar 6 2011, 04:01 PM) *
...but once a monster gets close to you it could be quite diffcult to escape or kill it.


Fair play. I'm not good at running, either. I'd get mullered.

QUOTE(BBB @ Mar 6 2011, 06:15 PM) *
There is a simple reason why the books refer to each other so much and cannot easily be got round.

[...snip...]


Okay, I can see that. In which case, can I suggest that you enclose a brief paragraph to explain this if/when you put the beginners' guide together? I feel sure I won't be the first or last to ponder it.

QUOTE
The idea of a complete set of books for a discount is an interesting one but I suspect that sho few people would be interested / able to shell out on that many at once that it would be a bit redundant, prehaps a buy 5 get 1 other free deal might work, I don't know the economics of the rulebooks.


I wondered about that sort of thing too. The thing is though, that on my first purchase I wouldn't have known which 6 to pick. I also don't know whether I'd have splurged on a complete set, due in no small part to the physical restrictions on the characters I can play. I am now wishing I had the whole lot for cross-referencing but can't afford to buy them all. If there was an incentive to complete the set, however...

Maybe there's potential for a "lending library" type thing for the first half dozen visits to the caves, where you can borrow a copy of each over lunch so that you can get your head around the basics of the system without having to decide where you want to expend your hard-earned pennies. I've only played twice normally and then over the anniversary weekend, and I already know that if there was an incentive to buy the whole collection as one I would.

Just a thought. Or several.
Onasuma
QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 6 2011, 03:37 PM) *
Rangers are covered in the Warrior's handbook but I had no way of knowing this until I had already purchased the Druid handbook, by which point I figured that I probably couldn't, and gave up trying.


You could always have asked someone what book they were in before buying one and hoping. There are lots of classes that could belong in one or more books (warlocks, wayfinders, power warriors etc. etc.) and it never hurts to ask. I also believe it says rangers are in the warrior book in the main handbook (in fact, I know it does) along with a big list of other example classes of each bracket. Likewise, many cross powerbase abilities are simple ones in the main handbook along with abbreviated summaries of simple classes. Not to be rude, but several things you are suggesting seem, to me at least, already to be covered there.

Peter Long
nerulean
Which kind of goes along with Sally's point that it can be difficult for people to find information in the system when they don't know all the books inside and out. wink.gif

The books really do feel like they need a lot of insider knowledge to get to grips with, which is partly to do with the cross referencing, partly the fact that each book has slightly different information in the indices, and partly that there isn't a clear central collection of the information that spans the whole of the system, since the handbook is mixed up with stuff for brand new players.
Craigus17
Ask at the desk.

I remember when I hadn't been coming down for very long and Carlo was dealing and I explained to him that the only book I owned was the Scout book, were there any others that he recommended I get and he told me I needed Evolution (which until that point I didn't know existed).

Explain to the desk staff exactly what you want to do or need to find out and they'll tell you.

And I dont know if you know this but you can buy publications for credits - so one day's monstering nets you two books. Bargain.
BBB
You'll find the Desk staff pretty helpful at explaining what books you need if you explain your situation to them or what it is that you want to know / learn about.

BBB
Godseed
Guys: while it does work, "you should ask someone in the know" is not a great rebuttal to an issue of the form "information on x is not as easy to find as it should be". Even if "someone in the know" is the desk. Much, much better for it to be clearly explained in writing...
Ezrekia
QUOTE(Onasuma @ Mar 6 2011, 09:20 PM) *
You could always have asked someone what book they were in before buying one and hoping.


It was actually an oversimplification of my situation. I'll spare you the saga. But I can't be the only person who's bought a book with x subclass listed as being in it, and then been disappointed to see that all it actually contains is, to paraphrase, "yeah, this has a lot in common with this class, but it's actually another class." Why bother putting it in at all?

As for asking someone, I'll come back to that in a moment.

QUOTE
Not to be rude, but several things you are suggesting seem, to me at least, already to be covered there.


To you, I say tongue.gif. There is a shedload of information to take on board when you're new, and I thought that some of the people who work on compiling publications might like to hear what it's like as a newbie trying to go round and round and round the handbooks when half of the content sounds like gibberish. To someone who knows the difference between PAC and DAC, what mana glyphs are or even where the word 'Primus' comes into the whole debacle this might be obvious. To someone picking up any of the books for the first time, it really is a nightmare.

QUOTE(nerulean @ Mar 6 2011, 09:43 PM) *
Which kind of goes along with Sally's point that it can be difficult for people to find information in the system when they don't know all the books inside and out. wink.gif


Eyethankewe.

QUOTE(Craigus17 @ Mar 6 2011, 10:47 PM) *
And I dont know if you know this but you can buy publications for credits - so one day's monstering nets you two books. Bargain.


Aha, good to know. See, nobody tells me these things. I can't actually monster any more, but this is the sort of information that really needs to be available somewhere for new players. To which I would add that people should be warned that they will need a light source as well as sensible shoes for their first visit. The photos show the caves lit, and man did I get a surprise when I got there!

QUOTE(Godseed @ Mar 7 2011, 09:52 AM) *
Guys: while it does work, "you should ask someone in the know" is not a great rebuttal to an issue of the form "information on x is not as easy to find as it should be". Even if "someone in the know" is the desk. Much, much better for it to be clearly explained in writing...


Thank you. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who thought that that was a bit of a cop out.

Yes, I know I can ask someone in the know, but what I think needs to be said is that there comes a time where you just feel like you can't ask any more. I seem to be constantly asking questions here, at the caves, of anyone I can pin down for 5 minutes on Facebook, and any other way I can think of. It irritates me - I can't imagine how it feels for the poor poppets who keep getting bombarded every time I'm within earshot. It would be much more sensible - and less uncomfortable - for newbies to have access to a simple guide that will allow them to play a simple character for their first few visits, so that they can actually enjoy the experience without having to work so hard to figure out what they can and can't do. My first adventure involved me being dragged around by another party member, who told me what to say and when, which moved the adventure along for the others, but made absolutely no sense to me.

I suppose that comes back to the argument about whether it is actually a good idea to run the trial adventures as independent from regular adventures. I can see both sides of the coin, but perhaps we could reach a compromise by, say, running a trial adventure with 5 or 6 new players and 5 or 6 more experienced players who are willing to help out the first-timers. That way, the adventure is not so daunting for the new players, which will allow people to feel like they actually have some idea what happened, but they still get the benefit of the experienced players who made my day so enjoyable. Again, just a thought from this end of the experience scale.

And I'd like to reiterate for the benefit of Mr Grumpy up there, and anyone else who is thinking it, that these comments are not meant to be a dig at the system or a slight on the people who have put the publications together. I think you've done an amazing job - I wouldn't know where to start on a project so gargantuan. I know I seem to be as thick as pig sh*t, but I think anyone from outside the circle probably does as they try to grasp the complexity of the whole affair. All I wanted to do was to offer a bit of insight to people who haven't been new at Labyrinthe for a long while as to what it feels like coming into it as it exists today. As a rule, all of you guys have been incredibly welcoming, and I feel like I've been embraced into the community whole-heartedly. For this I thank you. But I get the impression that you've had trouble recruiting new players, and the cliquey feel produced by such a jargon-heavy and confusing introduction to the system can't be helping people to step up and give it a go.
OxMatt
What Sally said.

Indeed, the situation is still slightly confusing when you've been playing for years but only really as one class, and look around for something in another bracket to play - with the added problem that you don't want to ask anyone obvious questions because it's just embarassing.

I know very well that the system has evolved and changed and the publications reflect that (actually very positive and wonderful) aspect of Labyrinthe - but perhaps we should look at compiling a big FAQ - working with various people who have been new to the caves recently?

Matt

P.S. Sally - the only thing I'd disagree with in what you wrote is that there are only a certain number of Qs you can ask. I know it can feel like that - but actually most cavies are more than pleased to answer endless questions and tell endless tales. smile.gif I'd certainly be happy, given that you are playing a priest (an area about which I know a lot), to be PMed questions whenever you have em. If I don't know the answer, I will be able to pass the question on to someone who does!
DanM
QUOTE(OxMatt @ Mar 7 2011, 11:07 AM) *
P.S. Sally - the only thing I'd disagree with in what you wrote is that there are only a certain number of Qs you can ask. I know it can feel like that - but actually most cavies are more than pleased to answer endless questions and tell endless tales. smile.gif


This is more than true
Ezrekia
QUOTE(OxMatt @ Mar 7 2011, 11:07 AM) *
P.S. Sally - the only thing I'd disagree with in what you wrote is that there are only a certain number of Qs you can ask. I know it can feel like that - but actually most cavies are more than pleased to answer endless questions and tell endless tales. smile.gif I'd certainly be happy, given that you are playing a priest (an area about which I know a lot), to be PMed questions whenever you have em. If I don't know the answer, I will be able to pass the question on to someone who does!


Cheers dude, may get back to you on that.

Nobody has ever given me the feeling that I'm asking too many questions of them, it all comes from me. It's again a feeling like being a fish out of water there. Everyone else seems to know what they're doing - no matter how many times they tell you they don't - as they run around able to remember their verbals and how many times they got hit, while I stand in a corner trying to remember my own name. It really does make you feel like a numpty.
LucyH
QUOTE
It would be much more sensible - and less uncomfortable - for newbies to have access to a simple guide that will allow them to play a simple character for their first few visits, so that they can actually enjoy the experience without having to work so hard to figure out what they can and can't do. My first adventure involved me being dragged around by another party member, who told me what to say and when, which moved the adventure along for the others, but made absolutely no sense to me.


I appreciate that it can be incredibly complex at times. but no one has ever been shot for asking questions (and many people here love answering them smile.gif )

Somewhat ironically, it used to be the case that you had 3-4 simple adventures in the pre-8th system, BUT the starting level for characters was changed last year from 1st to 4th because the vast majority of players, both experienced and not, said that they didn't enjoy playing 1st-3rd level characters, because they can't do much.

The best thing I can suggest if you feel that you are out of your depth is to put that character to one side for a bit and start something new, and do a low-level adventure, going through the learning curve again, but this time picking up on different stuff. The more characters you play, the better you will understand the system.

Lucy



DanM
QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 7 2011, 11:13 AM) *
It's again a feeling like being a fish out of water there.


It takes time. And with a system as large and expansive as ours, the learning curve is steep compared to other systems

We have different powerbases, non-standards, 4 3 published continents (plus others not in books), multiclassing, multiracing... its massive. 25 years does that to a game.

I dont envy someone having to learn it from scratch, we've had the benefit of it growing up around us
Craigus17
QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 7 2011, 11:03 AM) *
Aha, good to know. See, nobody tells me these things. I can't actually monster any more, but this is the sort of information that really needs to be available somewhere for new players. To which I would add that people should be warned that they will need a light source as well as sensible shoes for their first visit. The photos show the caves lit, and man did I get a surprise when I got there!


actually, this is all written in the handbook and the welcome page of the Labyrinthe website does say that you should read the handbook before playing for the first time.

QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 7 2011, 11:03 AM) *
(snip) for newbies to have access to a simple guide that will allow them to play a simple character for their first few visits, so that they can actually enjoy the experience without having to work so hard to figure out what they can and can't do.


This exists. It's called the handbook.

QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 7 2011, 11:03 AM) *
(snip) My first adventure involved me being dragged around by another party member, who told me what to say and when, which moved the adventure along for the others, but made absolutely no sense to me.


Unfortunately this is probably more due to the class that you chose to play more than anything else since you have to factor in things like your religion, your verbals, your remaining power points etc etc etc whereas a warrior just has to hit things.

Jasper
The Handbook contains pretty much everything you need to know to start playing the game. It's free.

Stuff like Rangers and Space Ninjas and whatever is just fluff.

A quick flick through these forums will reveal a group of people who are pretty much happy to answer any question you might have regarding the vast, monolithic (cyclopean? noneuclidean?) game system. Often in the process revealing that no-one, not even the people who have been/are the system manager, even come close to knowing all the rules.


J
Carlo
<Ask at the desk.

I remember when I hadn't been coming down for very long and Carlo was dealing and>

I'd just like to clarify, 'dealing' is not something I do.

But yes, most of the deskers all have pretty good system knowledge to be able to help, as well as desk copies of all the book for reference if need be.

Carlo
Ezrekia
QUOTE(Craigus17 @ Mar 7 2011, 11:24 AM) *
actually, this is all written in the handbook and the welcome page of the Labyrinthe website does say that you should read the handbook before playing for the first time.


I spoke to Jo beforehand, and my ref, and explained that I'd read the handbook pretty much cover to cover but was finding it really difficult to understand. They both confirmed that I'd need sturdy shoes, but neither of them mentioned the light sources. This is not their fault - it's such an obvious thing when you've been there. In the interest of offering feedback for the editor, perhaps this bit could be moved to the "Live Role-Playing at Labyrinthe" section of the Introduction of the handbook, at which point event those of us who have no idea are still more or less following.

QUOTE
This exists. It's called the handbook.


I disagree. The handbook is not simple from where I sit.
Godseed
QUOTE(Carlo @ Mar 7 2011, 11:33 AM) *
<Ask at the desk.

I remember when I hadn't been coming down for very long and Carlo was dealing and>

I'd just like to clarify, 'dealing' is not something I do.

Damn it. I could've sworn you were the type... wink.gif

QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 7 2011, 11:37 AM) *
I disagree. The handbook is not simple from where I sit.

It's not just you - this is a comment which I've heard from at least half a dozen new arrivals. The handbook seems simple to those of us who know how complex the rest of the system is. It does not seem simple to someone coming at it from a standing start.
Craigus17
QUOTE(Carlo @ Mar 7 2011, 11:33 AM) *
I'd just like to clarify, 'dealing' is not something I do.


Lol sorry was supposed to say 'desking'. iPhone predictive text clearly thinks badly of Carlo.

QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 7 2011, 11:37 AM) *
I disagree. The handbook is not simple from where I sit.


But it does have all the information that you are asking for. There is enough in there to play several different classes to 8th level (maybe about 8th + 100ish at a push). What you seem to be asking for is a republished version of information that is already published and available because you don't like the current format.

In my experience NOBODY takes objection to people asking questions. Nobody. As someone who was not that long ago pretty much in your exact situation, you really should trust me on that. There are players who have been coming since the late 80's who will still ocassionally ask questions, and Ben Zeally averages a new question about every 12 seconds.

It does confuse me sometimes that people are completely comfortable with walking around a cave in costume, holding a foam and latex weapon and shouting 'firedart!' at someone dressed in smelly damp armoury gear holding a foam and gaffa tape weapon, yet asking people questions takes them out of their comfort zone...
Godseed
QUOTE(Craigus17 @ Mar 7 2011, 12:01 PM) *
But it does have all the information that you are asking for. There is enough in there to play several different classes to 8th level (maybe about 8th + 100ish at a push). What you seem to be asking for is a republished version of information that is already published and available because you don't like the current format.

It's not a question of liking or disliking; the current format needs work. This is not just my opinion, it is clearly shared by quite a lot of new players.

QUOTE(Craigus17 @ Mar 7 2011, 12:01 PM) *
In my experience NOBODY takes objection to people asking questions. Nobody. As someone who was not that long ago pretty much in your exact situation, you really should trust me on that. There are players who have been coming since the late 80's who will still ocassionally ask questions, and Ben Zeally averages a new question about every 12 seconds.

It does confuse me sometimes that people are completely comfortable with walking around a cave in costume, holding a foam and latex weapon and shouting 'firedart!' at someone dressed in smelly damp armoury gear holding a foam and gaffa tape weapon, yet asking people questions takes them out of their comfort zone...

Zealley. I think the issue is not "will person x mind if I ask this question", but "I'm starting to feel embarrassed/like a twit/PITA for asking so many questions all the time". I don't suffer from this because I'm not quite human (at least in empathic terms), which is why I ask so many questions. wink.gif
LucyH
Guys, before you demand a new basic handbook, please consider the following:

1) Who is going to write it?
2) When are they going to write it.

Labyrinthe isn't a big games company and it doesn't have a staff of writers to give the job to. All of the Laby publications have been written, over the years by people who are doing it for free in their spare time whilst holding down a real-world job. So, whilst you can say "the curent format needs work" and demand a new rulebook all you like, which poor person do you expect to give up 100-odd hours of his free time to do the re-write?

Lucy
Godseed
Er, I would. I have to get the wiki up first, though, which may manage to render this unnecessary...
BBB
First off,

It's always good to get comments from new players. As more experienced players its hard to see what a new player might most need. We can only try and imagine.

Don't let any of our answers put you off making observations that only a newer player can make (even if our responses might come across as curt or defensive smile.gif )

I think part of the problem is that the system is vast.

There used to be ways to hold back players and get them into the game simply.

Firstly, it used to take months to get to 8th level, That is a thing of the dim and distant past, you no longer even need to stat at 1st level

Secondly, basic players were pretty much actively discouraged from playing anything not in the basic Handbook and most were limited to the very most basic of:

Warrior
Warrior Priest
Scout
Wizard
and occasionally Pure Priest

You basically weren't given much of a choice from those because those form the original core of the system and the biases within the system still revolve around those.

As a referee, if I'm writing a basic adventure I will try and restrict myself to using only affects, spells, miracles and so forth contained within the Handbook so that is all you need to know.

As it happens the Handbook could probably do with a tweak. Its current edition is just over 5 years old now and things such as referring to dungeons as Triple Lengths is out of date.

If you have a solid list of things that you wish you'd known that aren't in the introductory pages I'm sure the CMT would love to hear for when its next tweaked.

Rules aren't always where they might logically be expected, often for historic reasons of how the game evolved and on top of that there are surprising amounts of the system, that whilst not actual rules, are relatively common knowledge but aren't actually written down, they are learnt as you go along.

Stuff such as things you need to bring, I think is pretty well covered, re-itering that its a cave, its dark and that bringing a light source makes sense is not something we as regular players might think of, used to as we are at just buying glow sticks as and when needed. But in hindsight is something that would be handy to mention.

BBB
BBB
QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 6 2011, 08:21 PM) *
Okay, I can see that. In which case, can I suggest that you enclose a brief paragraph to explain this if/when you put the beginners' guide together? I feel sure I won't be the first or last to ponder it.


There used to be beginners guides, they got amalgamated into the Basic Handbook (which I believe is both freely downloadable and free to new players)

BBB
BBB
QUOTE(nerulean @ Mar 6 2011, 09:43 PM) *
Which kind of goes along with Sally's point that it can be difficult for people to find information in the system when they don't know all the books inside and out. wink.gif

The books really do feel like they need a lot of insider knowledge to get to grips with, which is partly to do with the cross referencing, partly the fact that each book has slightly different information in the indices, and partly that there isn't a clear central collection of the information that spans the whole of the system, since the handbook is mixed up with stuff for brand new players.


Back in my day they didn't have indices. I spent an awful long time adding the indices with handy cross referencing for cost and Table smile.gif

Whilst the publications have increased since the original 8? pages of A4 Post 8th abilities they have actually got easier to navigate of late (no really they have!)

BBB
BBB
QUOTE(Godseed @ Mar 7 2011, 09:52 AM) *
Guys: while it does work, "you should ask someone in the know" is not a great rebuttal to an issue of the form "information on x is not as easy to find as it should be".


Nope, suggestions how to make it easier would be far more helpful. smile.gif

Each iteration of republication aims to both improve the system and make it easier to get round. Complaints and suggestions do get listened to and ideas to make things easier, especially for new players will be gratefully received by all.

However, as has been pointed out, its worth remembering that someone needs to take time to do the work so there will be trade offs between what can be achieved and what we would ultimately like to achieve.

Again its the remarkable fluidity and evolution of the game that adds to these difficulties.

BBB
Godseed
QUOTE(BBB @ Mar 7 2011, 12:55 PM) *
Back in my day they didn't have indices. I spent an awful long time adding the indices with handy cross referencing for cost and Table smile.gif

Full points for you, sir!

QUOTE(BBB @ Mar 7 2011, 12:55 PM) *

Whilst the publications have increased since the original 8? pages of A4 Post 8th abilities they have actually got easier to navigate of late (no really they have!)

Excellent, then there's momentum for continued improvement wink.gif
Jan
QUOTE(Jasper @ Mar 7 2011, 11:28 AM) *
monolithic (cyclopean? noneuclidean?) game system.

J


Tetrascopal? You got a skill for that? smile.gif (in joke)
BBB
QUOTE(Godseed @ Mar 7 2011, 12:59 PM) *
Full points for you, sir!


Yeah, I got fed up of having to track down abilities I knew what they did but just wanted to get signed on my card and get the cost correct whilst the Referee looked at me disappointingly in the carpark of J10 as the brief was getting underway and I was completely inexplicably running late... wub.gif

BBB
Jasper
QUOTE(Jan @ Mar 7 2011, 01:21 PM) *
Tetrascopal? You got a skill for that? smile.gif (in joke)



This game system is Pre-Tetrascopal. Proto-Tetrascopal at best.
Both of which I have at tier 3, hanging from Tetrascopal Studies.

smile.gif
J
nerulean
There was mention of the newbies guide being resurrected at the Forum at the Anniversary, and I think that's a great idea. I'm willing to volunteer my time and (in)experience to the endeavour. It would probably benefit the Handbook too, making information that spans the whole system easier to find without getting lost in class listings and suchlike - questions like which similar benefits from which sources stack with each other that come up on the forum once a month, for example.
PhilB
This thread is entirely a good thing (from CMT perspective..). On my list of 'things to do' is getting feedback from newer players on how accessable Labyrinthe is - in all its aspects (including the system...)

I have read this thread with a good deal of interest, as it directly relates to one of our 'to do' CMT objectives. I feel that it is very hard for existing 'not so new' (or possibly 'old' smile.gif) players to look at the new players experience objectively. Even harder to figure out what works and what doesnt work for a new clubmember experiencing Laby for the first time.

If new clubmembers experiences suggest that information is tricky to find out, then it is something that I want to address. I intend to resurect/re-write the 'First Steps' - which may well help with this.

Keep the discussion going... its all really helpful smile.gif

Phil.
LucyH
Something I remember coming up in discussion a while ago was good "basic" spends for the first few hundred points of the handbook character classes, e.g. for Priests Extra spirits, casting stamina and Discern Associated; for Warriors Life and AC before damage grades - etc etc.

Would it be worth the evil geniuses of the club coming up with a few of these and putting them into a new edition of First Steps? So if newer players don't feel confident about navigating the post 8th tables there is a standard option for them to take that covers the first 250 points.

Lucy
OxMatt
Good idea. A few 'example' templates of characters spent at different thresholds would be an excellent thing, I think.

Matt
dalesuv
Iv not been around for long (about a year) and found it is much easier to make peace with accepting that it's impossible to know everything, there's loads of fairly basic stuff that completely escapes me. Iv had monsters throw effects at me and stood there looking like a puzzled chimp. As long as you know what you need to play your character and a basic understanding of things likely to happen to it the rest will come sooner or later.
DanM
For magic

Learn the difference between xxx Blast and xxx Bolt. (12/2 and 24.4 damage respectively regardless of what xxx is).
Know the names of the spells that can stop you, so you can stop smile.gif
Know the names of the "breaking spells", they are mostly obvious
Know that Bind stops your feet from moving, but only with footwear

Spirits.
Have a rough idea of what undead can do.
Know that Spirit Bolt does 18tblp

These few things should set you right
Hulud
I'm inclined to agree with everything Sally has written. We had a brief chat about this very subject at the anniversary both being quite new and all.

two ideas I have seen on this board that strike me as particularly interesting and potentially helpful -

1-sample characters

2-suggested first 250 pts spends
Hulud
QUOTE(Hulud @ Mar 24 2011, 11:33 AM) *
I'm inclined to agree with everything Sally has written. We had a brief chat about this very subject at the anniversary both being quite new and all.

two ideas I have seen on this board that strike me as particularly interesting and potentially helpful -

1-sample characters

2-suggested first 250 pts spends



And while were at it, the glossary of local language could definitely do with some expansion to include as much cave terminology as possible...I don't even know what 'CMT' stands for y'know.
LucyH
QUOTE(Hulud @ Mar 25 2011, 09:14 AM) *
And while were at it, the glossary of local language could definitely do with some expansion to include as much cave terminology as possible...I don't even know what 'CMT' stands for y'know.


That one is explained in the introduction bit of the website:

http://www.labyrinthe.co.uk/introduction/team_members/

Lucy

Carlo
QUOTE(Hulud @ Mar 25 2011, 09:14 AM) *
And while were at it, the glossary of local language could definitely do with some expansion to include as much cave terminology as possible...I don't even know what 'CMT' stands for y'know.


In ye olde handbook, there used to be one of these at the back! I remember finding it very useful. Perhaps it is worthwhile working on a new one.

CMT - Caves Management Team.

If you're ever unsure, just ask.

Carlo
Craigus17
Actually, one extremely important piece of information I never got told was that you have to call your damage grades when attacking. I still don't remember ever actually reading that anywhere.

Agreeing with BBB, there seems to be a lot of rules that I've heard from people that don't seem to be written down anywhere. For instance, I've been told that when attacking it is optional to apply your weapon masteries but you must always apply grades of strength. Definitely haven't read that anywhere and I'm certain I've read every publication there is apart from realm of glass.

Can't think of any others off the top of my head but I'm sure there are plenty. Maybe something else for Ben's wiki?
nerulean
One thing that I remember from being brand spanking new was reading the handbook from cover to cover and still not having any idea what would actually be going on during time in. Things as basic as Craig's example, "You will hit each other with padded sticks and say numbers to represent how much damage you're doing."

Obviously you don't want to give too much away before people get there because being down t'pit for the first time is exciting, but knowing the basics of how to use your character's abilities is pretty important. I monstered for a new group recently and none of their power users realised that they could be using rec mana and rec spirit as the first port of call for everything that glows.
Ezrekia
QUOTE(nerulean @ Mar 25 2011, 10:03 PM) *
I monstered for a new group recently and none of their power users realised that they could be using rec mana and rec spirit as the first port of call for everything that glows.


True. I didn't rec spirit until my second dungeon, and I was still reading it off a list as recognise spirit. I had no idea what the rest of you were up to biggrin.gif
MorZak
Mostly when you are getting killed people dont complain about your level of system knowledge if you die with vim.

Monstering is an excellent way of learning things, often party members will use effects more than once, adding a physical trigger seems to be helpful and if you inform them often they will give you more information e.g. Fireblast...4 hits.

also on the theme day (bugerthon?) it occured to me that it was fairly simple to learn a set of basic stats and effects, if this was applied to low level with all effects on the day being available for reference in the handbook, then this should hopefully instill confidence in new player's for dealing with other unknown effects at a later date(?).

also when you know everything someone will yellow paper you, =)


Z
Salamander
Just as an aside, I remember back when I was 11 and Tiffer's mum gave my mother a copy of the handbook to see if I would be interested and it just looked way to complicated for me to think about trying it. So it was a further two years before mother noticed there were some free trials and I persuaded a friend to come with me to give Labby a go.

Once you have played then it is so much easier to understand rather than just stacks and stacks of numbers
NickMonsterSands
re Post 8th stuff: Has anyone put together a spreadsheet/program where it filters out all the nonclass abilities?

I've no programming skills at all otherwise i'd give it a try. But it would be nice to have a program that has the abilities from the books, and you could select Class/Subclass & Race options which would then filter out all the abiliies that you cant use.

It's nice having the books, but when i'm looking for something JUST for my class and not for the subclasses it can be a [----] of a hunt.



And i've found that Asking people is all well and good but if you dont know What to ask you're stuck at the beginning and not able to move any further with anything.

I've also found that some pople will give some really good advice, but others will just give a little rant which puts you off from ever asking again, tho it hasnt me, i've a thick skin and i'll Keep asking questions regardless untill i get the Right answer (which i've just managed to do taken me a couple of months to get the Right answer mind you, and even then its contrary to what every one else has said... lol not confusing at all! XD )


I'd happily help with any Noob forums, i'm a perpetual n00b but then we might end up with the blind leading the blind...
marwoodbramwell
OK, interesting thread. Some thoughts as a player new to this system but not new to LARP.

(I do understand there are copyright issues with too much of the rules being on line for free but I'm going just ignore that, I suspect it is the meta-answer for most of what I'm about to say)

The Handbook is really not that friendly as far as newcomers went. The game's mechanics have been listed in an order that is logical to existing players. Even with a full set of rule books we were very puzzled about some aspects/calls/mechanics.

The one to one talks from the refs were very good, and helped our new players hugely, but some of it certainly could have been faster had we been able to grasp it on our own.

Some of the initial post-8th stuff is daunting, particularly without a guide to guilds (they were out of stock) and no clear info on what they involve/cost/grant.

*IF* anyone had a email or questionnaire they wanted us all to fill in for some detailed feedback I know all our players (about 18 of us so far have come to the caves) would be happy to help.

Jolyon
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