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> Faith and Commitment, Tenets of faith in adversity
Bruno
post Jul 23 2009, 03:07 PM
Post #21


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If what you want to say is simply voicing agreement with one viewpoint or another, and you don't have new information which will assist any discussion, then I would appreciate no further postings in these Halls, as the purpose here is to reach a conclusion, not express individual feelings.

In Starlight,

Basil
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Bruno
post Jul 23 2009, 03:22 PM
Post #22


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QUOTE(MartinW @ Jul 23 2009, 02:43 PM) *
Greetings to all

This truly is a hard time for us all as we all seek to follow what we believe to be true in our hearts. I will keep this very brief. I am one of the Order and I feel nothing but genuine affection for every follower of the lady.

This difference of opinion cannot divide us. When we met on Saturday we honestly felt that using the Spark as a weapon was wrong. But i also see that this is not the only choice.

To use our high priests words .... 'the attempted resurrection of Grace or the genesis of a new deity of light in some way.'

Surely this is the compromise? Then is it not Grace's choice?

With love to you all

Horace


Apologies - I wanted to add some clarity on this point - some of which is only very recently uncovered. A better phrase might be "reincarnation", or "new birth", or the like.

It is not possible to literally resurrect Grace as she was, and even if it were we would immediately precipitate the tearing of reality which led to Grace's sacrifice in the first place. It is likely possible to use the spark as a genesis of a new deity, but even this would lead to two versions of 'the same' divine power and would lead to paradox, tearing of reality, and we believe this would be disastrous.

Grace chose the sacrifice that she did, because she knew the consequences of not doing it. It was a wise and foresighted choice, and not intended to cause schisms or a decision to be reversed later. I regret that I muddied the waters by referring to it, but I wanted people to be aware of everything.

In Starlight,

Basil

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Caroline
post Jul 23 2009, 05:01 PM
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Horace has said the only option that the Order felt happy with. To allow the Spark to dvelop and grow. It was acknowldged that to reform Grace was not such a good idea and would upset many which they did not want. But the Order felt that to allow the Spark to grow and be safe or choose to fight for itself was the best option.

It is trully ashame that the only thing some can say is unkind words to others. No one in the Order is a coward and all have and will continue to give their lives for the Lady and for others. I am saddened that when people differ they result in insulting others. The Order will continue to fight. They will not however change their minds and allow the Spark to be forged into a weapon or object.


Gwyneth
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dnsmantra
post Jul 23 2009, 11:12 PM
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But the spark can't *grow*, it just *is*. It's a fragment of the collected strength, memories, feelings, desires and accretions of the life time of a goddess; the Lady Grace. It feels 'safe' and 'warm' because those feelings are remembered in the state it's in now. It can't grow anymore than stone can. But stone can be crafted, shaped, moulded to a purpose - you have moulded it to feeling safe and warm and doing nothing; hence the feelings it gives off to you. The feelings of love are because you've moulded it like that, not because it is truely feeling them, or truely growing. She who's spark it is would want to act - I don't understand why you stand against that.

Aurora
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clayton
post Jul 24 2009, 12:32 AM
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Horace.
Lady Gwen will speak at the time she appoints.
Speak no more now or here.
Hector.


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Err?...erm.....whas.....er..oo..ooo..oh ive forgoten!
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Jasper
post Jul 24 2009, 06:42 AM
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QUOTE(dnsmantra @ Jul 24 2009, 12:12 AM) *
But the spark can't *grow*, it just *is*. It's a fragment of the collected strength, memories, feelings, desires and accretions of the life time of a goddess; the Lady Grace. It feels 'safe' and 'warm' because those feelings are remembered in the state it's in now. It can't grow anymore than stone can. But stone can be crafted, shaped, moulded to a purpose - you have moulded it to feeling safe and warm and doing nothing; hence the feelings it gives off to you. The feelings of love are because you've moulded it like that, not because it is truely feeling them, or truely growing. She who's spark it is would want to act - I don't understand why you stand against that.

Aurora
Archangel of Grace


This isn't true - I don't know who told you this, or if you're just making it up, but it isn't true. One of the reasons for its existance as a seperate thing from Grace (and thus the reason why it survived Grace's sacrifice) is to experience life as a mortal experiences it, which the Valar can never really understand because to them physical form and all that goes with it are just raiment, clothes to wear. If it experiences things - feelings, whatever - then it cannot help but change or, if you like, grow, for that is what mortals do.

Its all very well for you to claim to know the mind of a dead goddess, Aurora, but the Lady of the Stars was very clear that this should be a decision taken by mortals. Gwynneth is the mortal chosen for the spark to inhabit (and who's experiences it shares) and so the decision is hers. She has made that decision so now let that be an end to it.

The Enemy was always going to come back, because He never really went away. The strongest of the Powers stood against Him, united, and only managed to subdue Him, to lock him away. To speak of the day when we will win is simply foolishness, as for that to happen there must be no more evil in the world and for that to happen there must be no more mortality.

Evensong


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JustinC
post Jul 24 2009, 08:38 AM
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Evensong is entirely correct in his statements regarding the Spark and Morgoth. He knew that already, but I thought I would add my voice to his in this matter, at least.

Eldias
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Caroline
post Jul 24 2009, 10:26 AM
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I would like to thank Eldias and Evensong for their knowledge and experience on this subject and for voicing it calmly.

To my understanding the Spark can grow into a new Goddess which will be very dangerous if it is handled incorrectly as it could form a tear. It would however allow the Spark to exsist free from another and then choose if it wishes to fight or not for itself. It would certainly prevent it from being an easy target for the Spark of Morgoth and those who have followed him.

It is alright Hector, I believe that Horace has made some excellent points and it would appear speaks with sincerity and elegance.

Gwyneth
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dnsmantra
post Jul 24 2009, 12:20 PM
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I strongly don't believe that's the case Evensong & Eldias. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I don't think it is so.

And yes Evensong it is easy to say; she forged me, I witnessed her in life for an age and more. I'd like to think I have a fairly good idea how she would wish things done.

Aurora
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JustinC
post Jul 24 2009, 12:40 PM
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Apologies. This is not the place for these discussions.

Eldias
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Jasper
post Jul 24 2009, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE(dnsmantra @ Jul 24 2009, 01:20 PM) *
I strongly don't believe that's the case Evensong & Eldias. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I don't think that it is so.

Aurora


Which part?

That the spark can feel? A god told me that. I don't know what else I can say to convince you.


Evensong.





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