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> Do we really need the post police?
Jan
post Apr 18 2009, 12:20 AM
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self censored on the grounds that you should never feed the forum troll.


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ZoeMercer
post Apr 18 2009, 12:58 AM
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QUOTE(Jan @ Apr 17 2009, 11:20 PM) *
self censored on the grounds that you should never feed the forum troll.


Some people might construe that as offensive Jan. Maybe even a personal attack. I don't personally but I do refute the accusation.
A troll posts simply to elicit a reaction. I have a clear purpose with a complaint that deserves attention, even if you do not think so.

You don't have to be nice, but one on such a lofty perch of superiority, should do as he would be done by.

Hypocrisy is not pretty. Ever.

Zoe
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MattJ
post Apr 19 2009, 09:55 PM
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Well, I've decided to throw my tuppence in on this one.

Zoe, generally I agree with you that censorship is a bad thing. However, I am happy to support it specifically on these forums. The CMT have made a decision to censor swear words from posts and I don't see a problem wih that. Ultimately, does it hurt anyone by forcing them not to swear on these forums...in my opinion, no. Does it hurt anyone to allow searing on these forums....potentially yes.

The point has been made that due to young players being on the forum it could put their parents off of allowing them to come to the club. You have made the point that they should have better things to do with ther time than monitering their children's activities on this forum, added to the fact that they will be exposed to swearing at school. Again I agree, however it is not our place to dictate to parents how they should be raising their children. Many parents are nervous about allowing their children into this hobby and knowing that their children will be interacting with sensible adults is often very important to them. If they think those adults are swearing all the time they are less likely to view those adults as sensible and are more likely to block their children from accessing the hobby. Even if you or I think it shouldn't put those parents off, it is not our decision but theirs.

So we get to the nub of it, does not swearing on these forums hurt anyone? No. Does allowing people to swear, potentially yes.

If these restrictions are bothering you there is nothing to stop you from setting up a seperate mailing group or forum and encouraging others to use it. I doubt that such a venture would be successful as it is far easier for people not to swear than to set up and use a different forum. Ultimately the CMT have made a decision which doesn't actually hurt anyone. If you don't like the decision there's nothing to stop you setting up another forum for people to use.

Matt J
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Pants
post Apr 20 2009, 08:36 AM
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To be honest... we do play a fantasy game where we discuss daemons, hell, blood, sacrafices, and lots of other terrible things to many people due to their religon or host of other reasons.

Now I agree that swear swords of the more fruity nature, f, c, s , mf, etc should not be posted. (see what i did there).

I do think that bloody and hell and damn it, and bugger are minor to the point that in today's society and indeed in the world of LRP they are tame and indeed appear in Harry Potter.

Lets face it the next adventure we might all be eating peoples souls and hearts whilst dancing around a bonfire calling to the Black Goat of the Woods, whilst the YP are next door. (It has happened).

As towards bias, there clearly is. I am even able to make it work in my favour. That is not a good thing by the way. I can probably go through a list of bias occassions.

I am just exceptionally laid back and thus cannot be bothered by arguing with people to raise the issues most of the time, unlike others who do, I am also a fully versed up business speak man.



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DavidFisher
post Apr 20 2009, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE(Pants @ Apr 20 2009, 09:36 AM) *
Now I agree that swear swords of the more fruity nature, f, c, s , mf, etc should not be posted. (see what i did there).

I do think that bloody and hell and damn it, and bugger are minor to the point that in today's society and indeed in the world of LRP they are tame and indeed appear in Harry Potter.


Personally for me, blasphamy is worse than swearing so I would prefer people to say "poo" and words related to it than damn and bloody hell.

Horses for courses

David
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Jasper
post Apr 20 2009, 10:36 AM
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It's always seemed a bit weird that games which involved huge battles and evil gods and so on didn't have any swearing. Its ok for a 10 year old to play an unholy champion but not for him to say <edited cos I accidentally swore>? It makes no sense at all but the fact remains that lots of people think that way. The same is true in video games, films and books - violence is for some reason more acceptable than swearing.

At the end of the day, though, its up to the people who own this forum (yes, that's right, own) what the rules are. Their football, their jumpers and their park. Pretty sure everyone who registered an account here agreed to abide by the rules. I haven't actually checked but I would be surprised if there wasn't a rule about language.

As for bias - meh. Some people always believe that if they don't get their way there must be some huge conspiracy against them and some other people are only human. I'm certainly biased towards people I like and I imagine everyone else is too.

As for censorship I'll just say "everyone who works in the education system is both a child abuser and an incompetant fool" and leave it at that.

J


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Bruno
post Apr 20 2009, 10:46 AM
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Personally the mis-spelling of words like incompetent is far more upsetting to me than any swear-word sad.gif but I am well aware that swearing does bother some people, so in a fairly public forum, I don't do it.


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Jasper
post Apr 20 2009, 10:54 AM
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Doh. I work in the education system too. Double doh.

J


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Pants
post Apr 20 2009, 11:33 AM
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Indeed there has always been bias. People will always perceive certain decisions as biased if it does not go there way.

However just because we accept it exists does not mean it should. I am talking about once decision for x as against the decision to y where the cases are similar and there are no erronous differences tha would cause the alternative decision.

I work in sales and the job is all about bias, make the client like you more personally than the competition and even if your more expensive they will still go with you.

All I need now is to know how to make people like me. :-)


Anyway probably not helping to diffuse the situation.


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MattHowells
post Apr 20 2009, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE(Jasper @ Apr 20 2009, 11:36 AM) *
violence is for some reason more acceptable than swearing.


It depends on the context. Some kids participating in mock violence in the context of a fantasy role-playing game is, indeed, more acceptable to me than somebody telling me to **** off. Forums are a very poor method of communication where it is easy to type stupid things and to misinterpret what others are saying in the absence of body language and tone of voice. The censorship of posts is I believe intended to foster respectful communication, among other things, and should be supported.


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Brucifer
post Apr 20 2009, 02:51 PM
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As an interesting aside, what do ppl think of swearing IC during a dungeon. For me it really puts me back in the 21st century rather than a Dark Ages/Fanstasy setting to here a ratfolk tell me to '**** ***'.

And i agree that swearing should be limited, but words like bugger, bloody hell etc are tame compared to most things. As with all though its up to the organisers to make their rules and enforce them (which they now do).

biggrin.gif

B


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Gordon
post Apr 20 2009, 03:53 PM
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IC/period insults are the way forward.


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Gordon Court
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Known to play: Amorphus, Mithaniel, Raven & Radiant
Cast of 2009: Amorphus, Ash, Cyric, Godstone, Kessel, Prowl, Mithaniel, Radiant, Raven, Strale, Void & Vorell
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Cast of 2014: Amorphus, Hex, Godstone, Golgari, Ink-Eyes, Radiant & Strale
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DanM
post Apr 20 2009, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE(DavidFisher @ Apr 20 2009, 10:14 AM) *
Personally for me, blasphamy is worse than swearing so I would prefer people to say "poo" and words related to it than damn and bloody hell.

Horses for courses

David


Well, you'd be wrong...

But the religion is a crock ***** thread is for another day


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Pants
post Apr 21 2009, 09:18 AM
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Well done Dan! :-)

It depends sometimes I dont mind IC swearing lets face it I do it. But sometimes I annoy myself.

I think what everyone is also forgetting is that English is an amazing language with the largest vocab of any other. (mainly as we steal words). However also we have the most swear words... why... well because they are emotive and can beused to express a whole host of things.



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VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI

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giles
post Apr 21 2009, 07:23 PM
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Atcherlly, almost none of you will be fascinated to discover that **** is a good old fashioned Dark Ages Anglo Saxon word (Old English I think to be precise) - it means 'beat'. In fact the Anglo Saxon term for eagle was 'wynd ******'.
My charming aside aside, this isn't a plea for authenticity, not least because I like warm showers and cotton undergarments. Speaking personally I'm quite happy with there being low to no swearing - yes I am sure there are times (and I agree) when only a rude word will do - but (for me at least) none of them are at the weekends when I am dressed as a wizard or a goblin - or talking about such things (which is selfishly all I want from these forums).

Just as an aside I quite likes the rationale/rules Alan has on the HotE board - which were basically no swearing and never more than 1 exclamation mark.

cheers,

Giles.



QUOTE(Brucifer @ Apr 20 2009, 03:51 PM) *
As an interesting aside, what do ppl think of swearing IC during a dungeon. For me it really puts me back in the 21st century rather than a Dark Ages/Fanstasy setting to here a ratfolk tell me to '**** off'.

And i agree that swearing should be limited, but words like bugger, bloody hell etc are tame compared to most things. As with all though its up to the organisers to make their rules and enforce them (which they now do).

biggrin.gif

B
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JossDixon
post Apr 22 2009, 04:56 PM
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I haven't bothered to read half of the posts here, because frankly it's guessable it's people unloading into each other, but basically I'm a YP, and I agree that swearing should be moderated, but like Bruce said words like crap, arse and bugger are just mild and should be allowed. Personally what I find really draws thing out of character is when people start saying stuff like **** and ****** - because people then laugh at it and things deteriorate.

For example, I'd be annoyed if I heard:
"Lol, he's dead ****** ****** him!!!"
<laughter>

But not:
"You half-arsed *******!"
"Shut up you goblin, you smell like *****"

Anyways, Zoe, I think that while I miss the way it was when I was in my first year, when it felt more like a secret organisation of nutters, Labyrinthe has become more public, and so needs a more presentable image (Yes I know I'm not exactly warm to new players), and I know there are parents who look over their child's shoulder when they're on the computer.

So frankly, if you like to spew obscenities around your child, or just generally, then that's your choice.
Many things should be shared, but swearing is not one of them.
And I do swear at Labyrinthe, but I do realise it, and I do try and limit myself.
Ha, I just remembered a phrase from the IT crowd:
"Will you watch your ruddy language, my ears are not a toilet!"
Though in this case it's eyes aswell

Joss.
Unfriendly Neighbourhood Young Player.


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Jasper
post Apr 23 2009, 12:52 AM
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Well put, Joss.


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JossDixon
post Apr 23 2009, 04:59 PM
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Well, <ehem> I am experienced in the...er...whateverthisis...business biggrin.gif


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ZoeMercer
post Apr 23 2009, 05:40 PM
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I think some of you may have missed my point.

If you notice, I do not swear in my posts. (At least I don't think I have. It certainly is not a regular occurance.)

However, I think that time spent censoring certain minor swear words could be better spent doing something more useful.

I do think there is a bias and this post quite clearly demonstrates it.

Some of you have used words as example of what you find acceptable that have remained unedited, that for other posters have been changed. This suggests to me that a person is doing the censoring but not based on the word but the poster.

I also find it hypocritical to substiute symbols for letters within what are clearly swear words. If the reason for censoring is to protect the young and impressionable then this should also be censored. (and maybe villified as much as those who swear for real.)

While a noble cause, it is made less valid by sporadic enforcement against those who are subject to an alternate agenda. My hope is that by pointing such bias out those perpertrating it might at least go back to doing it a little more covertly. If I'm really lucky they might even stop.





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AndyWashington
post Apr 23 2009, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE(ZoeMercer @ Apr 23 2009, 06:40 PM) *
I do think there is a bias and this post quite clearly demonstrates it.

Some of you have used words as example of what you find acceptable that have remained unedited, that for other posters have been changed. This suggests to me that a person is doing the censoring but not based on the word but the poster.

While a noble cause, it is made less valid by sporadic enforcement against those who are subject to an alternate agenda. My hope is that by pointing such bias out those perpertrating it might at least go back to doing it a little more covertly. If I'm really lucky they might even stop.


Although I may be wrong might it not also be indicative of one of the cmt being out of the country with work? The CMT have said that they do not read every post and if they are busy with stuff then maybe these words have not been noticed? Every post has a 'report' button next to it for if people find it objectionable, I would think that on at least some occasions when posts have been edited it is much more likely that it has been brought to their attention by an offended member (or member's parent) rather than they have trawled the forums looking for such themselves.

Andy
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