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> Do we really need the post police?
ZoeMercer
post Apr 17 2009, 10:38 AM
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Is the censure of minor swear words necessary?

I understand that children may be reading but some of the language edited would get passed as PG by the film board.

I would prefer that CMT spend their valuable time doing something a little less boring instead. Unless it has some alternate purpose we should know about.
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TimTreadwell
post Apr 17 2009, 11:22 AM
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Personally... yes.

There's no need to swear on a group posting. A verbal outburst in the heat of the moment is not the same as typing it and then hitting "Add Reply".

And some parents will not appreciate the use of swearwords on a site used by our young players.

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Nige
post Apr 17 2009, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE(TimTreadwell @ Apr 17 2009, 12:22 PM) *
Personally... yes.

There's no need to swear on a group posting. A verbal outburst in the heat of the moment is not the same as typing it and then hitting "Add Reply".

And some parents will not appreciate the use of swearwords on a site used by our young players.

Tim.


I agree with Tim.

Nige
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LucyH
post Apr 17 2009, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE(ZoeMercer @ Apr 17 2009, 10:38 AM) *
Is the censure of minor swear words necessary?


Standards differ - your "minor" might be someone else's "unacceptable".

Personally I'm happy, as it shows the CMT are actually reading what's posted here.


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MattHowells
post Apr 17 2009, 11:35 AM
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Yes, I think forum moderation is appropriate, although I would prefer posts containing swearing to be deleted rather than edited, or the poster banned.


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ZoeMercer
post Apr 17 2009, 11:56 AM
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I think that parents have more to worry about than a small spattering of minor expletives. Have you seen what is available on the internet!

And come on. Is there really a proportion of parents who allow their children to come to what is frankly an unusual hobby and be mortally offended by a four letter word on the internet?

Is there a parent who would allow their child to use a bastard sword but stop them coming if they saw the word used to describe a child who has a father not married to his mother?

Maybe access to most of the boards have a screen that says that you must be over 16 to enter. I say sixteen as I am thinking that all the language I am referring to would be passed in a 15 rated film. A compromise between free speech and pre watershed bbc standards.

I also think that other message boards make it clear that they are not responsible for what is posted by members.

I know that while watching day time tv or listening to a track on the radio that has been censored, my attention is drawn to it far more than if it had just been left alone.

I also suspect that some of the infractions recently have been an indignant reaction to heavy handed and biased techniques utilised by the CMT of late.


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Stuart
post Apr 17 2009, 12:15 PM
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I think it helps maintain a level of respect between people, by making it clear that certain language isn't to be tolerated. I'm pleased it's done.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, and I'm happy with where it's being drawn at the moment. It's not easy keeping a bunch of cantankerous people like us on good terms with each other and I'm glad it's not my responsibility.

An interesting question is to flip this on its head and ask whether we should tolerate snide comments and rudeness between members. This is the public face of our club and does that sort of attitude send the wrong message to potential newcomers? I'm a huge advocate of freedom, but it needs to be balanced with an acceptance of personal responsibility. If some people are unable to moderate their language to a respectable level, then unfortunately poor Andy has the thankless task of doing it for them.

Stuart
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MarkCox
post Apr 17 2009, 12:20 PM
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I think it is necessary, some people seem unable to communicate without swearing.
It shows a disrespect to the other users of these forums.

I think prehaps they are not strong enough - and definately repeat offenders need to be warned - or have their ability to post limited in some manner.



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ZoeMercer
post Apr 17 2009, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Apr 17 2009, 11:15 AM) *
I think it helps maintain a level of respect between people, by making it clear that certain language isn't to be tolerated. I'm pleased it's done.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, and I'm happy with where it's being drawn at the moment. It's not easy keeping a bunch of cantankerous people like us on good terms with each other and I'm glad it's not my responsibility.

Stuart


Good terms? I don't think God herself could do that! However, good terms are not necessary for us all to enjoy our hobby and the social element that often follows.

And I'm not surprised you are happy Stuart. After all your dungeons go ahead with four players while others are cancelled.

A happy medium and a lively board for a club where members are not treated like 5 year olds is what I hope for.

(Psychic ones at that. After all, there is no list or reference material of what is acceptable. If you said blast in front of one of my grandmothers, you were likely in big trouble as she did not find it acceptable.)

Zoe
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Stuart
post Apr 17 2009, 12:43 PM
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QUOTE(ZoeMercer @ Apr 17 2009, 01:30 PM) *
...And I'm not surprised you are happy Stuart. After all your dungeons go ahead with four players while others are cancelled....

Zoe


I'm not sure what this has to do with moderating of posts? If you're suggesting that there's endemic bias from the CMT I suggest you raise it with them privately. I honestly believe that they do a great job under extremely difficult circumstances, and am delighted that they (along with others) have been prepared to put so much work into continuing and improving our hobby.

More strength to the arms of all those involved.

Stuart
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JulianW
post Apr 17 2009, 12:54 PM
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On reflection I have to oppose the censorship of profanity here.

It is an excellent guide to the quality of the poster's argument.

Julian


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ZoeMercer
post Apr 17 2009, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Apr 17 2009, 11:43 AM) *
If you're suggesting that there's endemic bias from the CMT I suggest you raise it with them privately. I honestly believe that they do a great job under extremely difficult circumstances, and am delighted that they (along with others) have been prepared to put so much work into continuing and improving our hobby.

Stuart


I'm so glad you mentioned it.

I do believe that there is a bias from the CMT and I would raise it privately were it not for my experiences previously.

Just after my 3 day last year, I was keen to offer my feedback and was told that I should contact Andy on his email.

4 week later I had not got any indication that the email had been seen. So I dropped another email to Andy asking if it was an oversight. He asked me to resend it, which I did.

When enquiries were made about the message and it's contents this week, I was told that all feedback must be submitted in paper form at the desk. The e mail is about 700 words long and as such not something that is appropriate for the form as it stands.

I object to some people having feedback accepted by electronic methods and others not.

If this attitude were isolated, I probably would still try to achieve my ends through private methods. Suffice to say it is not.

I see little reason to subject myself to being ignored further. At least here someone will read it, at least until it is taken down by the CMT. It's probably too political.
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Andrea
post Apr 17 2009, 01:26 PM
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Yes there are parents who allow their children to take part in this hobby who are of the mind that if they can do anything to limit the childs contact with swearing and inappropriate language in general they will.

My parents were just one, and I can name current YP's parents who are adversed to it.

If you haven't noticed when behind the desk I will ask people to tone down language whether children are present or not. Yes the kids are going to hear it on tv, from their peers or in some cases from the parents. But no adult can assume to know what that kids parents want, so I blanket edit of swear words here is the responisible thing to do. I am glad of it, and if I had a child of the right age I'd be happy for them to see whats posted here.

Yes on the internet there is a lot of inappropriate content.. but that is what parental control was invented for. You can block these sites or sites containing certain things from being accessed.

Beyond all of this: Does it harm anyone to have the inappropriate language edited? Seriously? When the world is full of devestation, horrendous inhumane actions and war, surely removing the odd **** or whatever is small potatoes.


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DanM
post Apr 17 2009, 01:37 PM
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QUOTE(ZoeMercer @ Apr 17 2009, 02:04 PM) *
I do believe that there is a bias from the CMT and I would raise it privately were it not for my experiences previously.


This.


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AndrewBucknell
post Apr 17 2009, 01:48 PM
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Both of my children play in the YP (as I know do Zoe and simon's son) My 14 year old is so used to such language from the local state run grammer school that he probably does not even notice it, whilst my 11 year old yet to leave prep school is actually confused by it.
Personally as a parent I am extremely pleased to see swear words moderated out.
As a player I also find the use of modern day swear words just wrong and have even booked off once when one character only spoke in long streams of obscenity.

Andrew (prude)
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ZoeMercer
post Apr 17 2009, 01:53 PM
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Well here's an opinion that may be contravertial. You cannot protect children from it completely. What you should do is school them on how it is inappropriate and ineffective in most circumstances.

I heartily concur with Julian's opinion.

On the other hand, Maybe Billy's got a point. NOT WORK SAFE OR FOR THE UNDER 16'S

Andy. I'm sure I saw a post offering to speak to me Saturday. However, after Simon's dungeon got cancelled, we have arranged to visit Chessington. I am glad that a prompt response can be procured in some circumstances and am happy to arrange a mutally acceptable date in the near future.

Zoe

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abyatt
post Apr 17 2009, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE(ZoeMercer @ Apr 17 2009, 02:53 PM) *
Well here's an opinion that may be contravertial. You cannot protect children from it completely. What you should do is school them on how it is inappropriate and ineffective in most circumstances.

I heartily concur with Julian's opinion.

On the other hand, Maybe Billy's got a point. NOT WORK SAFE OR FOR THE UNDER 16'S

Andy. I'm sure I saw a post offering to speak to me Saturday. However, after Simon's dungeon got cancelled, we have arranged to visit Chessington. I am glad that a prompt response can be procured in some circumstances and am happy to arrange a mutally acceptable date in the near future.

Zoe

Yup - you did. I switched it to a PM offering to meet up and discuss pretty much anything you want.
I'm in China on work for a week or so from Sunday, but certain we can fix a date
Andy


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Jan
post Apr 17 2009, 04:23 PM
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I do not want people posting direct links to porn sites pretending that they are funny jokes, so I want censoring. I do not want people writing blatantly offensive lies about me or my friends, and as such some method for removing such lies needs to exist so I want censoring. I do not believe that people have a right to post any old poisonous **** that they want to just to get a rise out of someone they don't agree with, and so I want censoring.

There is no right to post on these forums, there is no entitlement to free speech element in play here. This is a forum for people who want to constructively be part of the community which is Labyrinthe, not just dragging down the tone of everyone elses fun simply because they are in a bad place at this time.

Very bored now of the snipings.

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ChrisAndrews
post Apr 17 2009, 06:50 PM
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As someone who's moderated forums before I don't have a problem with it. I knew when I signed up to the forums that there'd be some moderation. There almost always is - the moderation here isn't the worst I've seen, and the CMT make the effort to mark posts as moderated unlike some places where the post is simply changed.

Personally I dislike swearwords and bad language - I think that they're overused and 99% of sentences would work just as well or better without them. I always thought it showed a certain sense of laziness - Think a bit, use the whole of the rest of our language to describe things.

Also I agree that whilst it's true that you can't shield people from the realities of the world that doesn't mean you should shove them down people's throats - would people agree with me posting hardcore pornography on the OOC section because everyone has/will see it some time so I might as well post it on the laby forums?

Chris

Edit: I also agree with Jan - Freedom of speech doesn't necessarily extend to forums. I'm all for it, but the CMT are the ones paying for the bandwidth, the servers and all that gumph. It's their website and up to them what is on it. Yeah it's perhaps not the best situation, but if you're civil and polite to everyone else I doubt you'll run afoul of them.
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ZoeMercer
post Apr 17 2009, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE(Jan @ Apr 17 2009, 03:23 PM) *
I do not want people posting direct links to porn sites pretending that they are funny jokes, so I want censoring.


Easy enough, and the occurances of that happening have been few and far enough between to warrent the time it needs to deal with such.

QUOTE
I do not want people writing blatantly offensive lies about me or my friends, and as such some method for removing such lies needs to exist so I want censoring.


I think if they are as blatent as you describe then the post will speak for itself. Surely noone could say anything on this forum that would make a lasting difference to the possible subject of such a post. I'm not so sure that I have seen direct lies about any individual. Only opinion. It's not as if it is something a police officer lied about in court for example. THAT has lasting effects on the person.
A famous bloke once said: 'What is truth?' Let people make their own decisions rather than deciding what is good for them.

QUOTE
I do not believe that people have a right to post any old poisonous w*nk that they want to just to get a rise out of someone they don't agree with, and so I want censoring.


Careful Jan. That is flying very close to the line. Replacing one letter of a swear word could be considered offensive to some. Lets face it. You could try the word rubbish or trash as an alternative. Apparently, there is no need to resort to even inferring such offensive words. Or was Billy right and sometimes nothing else will do?

QUOTE
This is a forum for people who want to constructively be part of the community which is Labyrinthe, not just dragging down the tone of everyone elses fun simply because they are in a bad place at this time.


Everyone? That is a broad generalisation. Can you be so certain that it is everyone? Add to that it is perfectly possible to be a constructive part of the community and swear or even disagree vocally with the majority (or minority) of other members. It only drags you down if you let it. A person could always ignore it rather than crying to the boss.

My turn: I do not want a tiered system of Labyrinthe membership where your worth and in turn the support you receive from the CMT is proportionate to how much you have brown-nosed and agreed with them rather than how much you have contributed to the club in other ways.

Not only is this evident with over policing of certain peoples posts, but also with issues of consultation and consistency. We were not consulted about what we wanted to happen with the plot team or xmas three day. Add to that when some people seem to get instant resolutions to their issues while others wait several months. Another example is where the CMT make a bold statement about no shows and a huge fine, yet I know of two referees who have blown out at least one extended length dungeon at the last minute and as far as I am aware, there were no punitive measures. One has been granted considerably more responsibility since, despite multiple no shows.

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Very bored now of the snipings.


I'm very bored of the double standards and apparent nepotism. Anyone would think Pete Garner was back. I told him my opinion at the time too.

Zoe
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