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> Vessel of the Spirits
Stuart
post Feb 9 2018, 01:54 PM
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Is it too good?

It’s the same cost as the mana and earth power versions.
Level 6 almost triples the number of spirits, compared to level 5, for 100
It stacks with Wisdom in the Scriptures.
72 spirits for 600 pts is pretty solid by anyone’s calculations.

The issue isn’t so much what it grants, as the impact it has in starting. Do you stat your 750 2-day on the basis a player has it, in which case anyone without it runs out of power by tea time. Or do you not, and risk barely challenging your party who get, as a group, say 36 spirits back every hour regardless?

I can see on extended lengths triple active Mee just about keeps up. But in a normal caves dungeon it’s so good it ought to be on every priest’s spend.

Even if you just applied for a free total heal every 30 mins not counting against your cap you’d expect the price to be comparable, no? But the spirits can be used for this and much, much more!

Perhaps priests were too weak beforehand and this levels the playing field?

Stuart
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Gordon
post Feb 9 2018, 02:04 PM
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When played poorly as I get 12 free spirits an hour it does seem too good.

However, when it is used properly, as in as a separate pool of spirits that you cast from, doesn't mix with your other spirit pools, only cast on handbook miracles and regens from when you actually cast the miracles then it is fine.

12 spirits an hour for a priest on a 750 extended length is very strong but they only have 150pts to spend on everything else including say 1 to ToD and Discern Associated.

Multiple priests with it again makes stating and attrition a very different beast from the time before the 4th Age, but I don't think it's broken or overly unbalanced.

What does suck is the comparison between the Casting Stamina regen class and Vessel.


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Gordon Court
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Known to play: Amorphus, Mithaniel, Raven & Radiant
Cast of 2009: Amorphus, Ash, Cyric, Godstone, Kessel, Prowl, Mithaniel, Radiant, Raven, Strale, Void & Vorell
Cast of 2010: Amorphus, Aqueous, Blaen, Godstone, Hex, Kessel, Mithaniel, Prowl, Radiant, Shadowmoss, Vanderlaine & Void
Cast of 2011: Cyric, Hex & Prowl
Cast of 2012: Kessel
Cast of 2013: Amorphus, Golgari, Kessel, Marimar, Radiant, Strale & "Terry"
Cast of 2014: Amorphus, Hex, Godstone, Golgari, Ink-Eyes, Radiant & Strale
Cast of 2015: Amorphus, Karador, Radiant, Strale & Zaton
Cast of 2016: Zaton
Cast of 2017: Amorphus, Equinox, Godstone, Golgari, Hex, Karador, Prowl, Radiant, Variel & Zaton.
Cast of 2018: Amorphus, Despair, Equinox, Golgari, Karador, Lannary, Prowl, Templeton, Vanderlaine, Void & Zaton
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bendy
post Feb 9 2018, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE(Gordon @ Feb 9 2018, 02:04 PM) *
When played poorly as I get 12 free spirits an hour it does seem too good.

However, when it is used properly, as in as a separate pool of spirits that you cast from, doesn't mix with your other spirit pools, only cast on handbook miracles and regens from when you actually cast the miracles then it is fine.

12 spirits an hour for a priest on a 750 extended length is very strong but they only have 150pts to spend on everything else including say 1 to ToD and Discern Associated.

Multiple priests with it again makes stating and attrition a very different beast from the time before the 4th Age, but I don't think it's broken or overly unbalanced.

What does suck is the comparison between the Casting Stamina regen class and Vessel.


Agreed, in that it seems quite open to abuse in that it would be hard to keep track of if the user is just using it for stuff on their list and whether at the time of casting they really had enough spirits in their 12 pool. Also expecting people to keep track of every 5 mins pretty hard (appreciate some folk have watches etc but this must distract from staying in char)

It's also tough in that you can still buy innates of advanced stuff with the right M/C

I also agree that the casting stamina version is a complete pile of tosh when compared to vessel.

If you have got two power pools it's pretty hard not to buy it.
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Ryan
post Feb 9 2018, 02:15 PM
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Welcome to the 4th age...

Sadly like everything else it plays to the benefit of the goodly priest - I don’t mind a wizard having it (1 mana and 1 spirit don’t line up), I don’t mind a druid having it (their evocs are over costed anyway) but when it is in the hands of a goodly priest (or worse a first class warrior gone priest to 8th) it’s 2 total heals an hour... after you cast you bless in the brief to get the timer running

It just goes back to my age old argument of the system is much better if cure crit is handbook and total heal is major healing...

Wait until you see someone on an extended length use it with priest of the runes at 1500pts... haha!
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Stuart
post Feb 9 2018, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE(Ryan @ Feb 9 2018, 02:15 PM) *
Wait until you see someone on an extended length use it with priest of the runes at 1500pts... haha!


Surely no-one would do such a thing!

Tou’re right though. I’m not hugely offended with an evil priest having it. It’s still very good indeed, but not so hideous as 4 heals an hour using Wisdom in the Scriptures.

Stuart
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Christine
post Feb 9 2018, 02:35 PM
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Didn't this conversation happen some months ago when the new books came out?

And didn't Son of nerf it / say it had always been that way by saying you couldn't use the spirits with other spirits at all - so you couldn't use 2 Vessel spirits and 2 normal spirits to cast a heal?

I may be mis-remembering, in which case apologies.

Devotion to the tree is still better if you are Healing / Forces anyway.

But in general I dislike it very much.

C
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Carlo
post Feb 9 2018, 02:40 PM
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It’s too too hard. I hate it.

Stack it with power storing, or spirit reductions and it’s utterly horrendous.

Ok... handbook only. No restriction at all.

I like it for wizards. It’s perfect.

Cost wise, it’s too good for anyone with healing.

If I ref an extended event, it’s on my ‘you may not buy this’ list. Along with immortal, tblp only or supernatural hits before T9.

Carlo
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Ryan
post Feb 9 2018, 02:40 PM
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You are correct Christine it has been clarified but heal and total heal are both divisible by 12 so still very beneficial - as Stuart says a heal every 15 minutes with Wisdom as well, factor in prayer to aid that is 48/48 per 15 minutes.

Saying that... I haven't used it on any extended length last year while many others did and didn't at any point feel I was being outclassed playing a wizard and a vivomancer (both had nonstandard power regen however).
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isbiraven
post Feb 9 2018, 02:54 PM
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I like it... its cool... if somebody wants to play the party healer gf then why can't they?

T.
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giles
post Feb 9 2018, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE(isbiraven @ Feb 9 2018, 02:54 PM) *
I like it... its cool... if somebody wants to play the party healer gf then why can't they?

T.



I'm inclined to agree.

'it’s on my ‘you may not buy this’ list. Along with immortal, tblp only or supernatural hits before T9'
I think these options are infinitely preferable to previously - when you might get someone with a non standard obscenity that was unbalancing. At least by having these standard options they are good enough that people want to buy them.


'didn't at any point feel I was being outclassed playing a wizard and a vivomancer (both had nonstandard power regen however).' - this is exactly my point - prior to vessel etc. people still had good stuff, it was just non standard and so only available to a select few. I think that it's fine that it's really good - as a ref you cn stat for it in different ways (not just attrition) and (for many not all) playing a healer isn't considered that fun (some people enjoy it and do it very well) - case in point on the 1500 3 day upcoming - chatting about options - comments such as whose turn is it to play the healer - suggest it's not everyone's favourite cup of tea - so if vessel gives them a little boost (or even a big one) then fair play imo

Giles.
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fatteacher
post Feb 9 2018, 05:03 PM
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How about only allow it for the less experienced players who struggle to keep up with you uber-competent players and ban all others from buying it?


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miles
post Feb 9 2018, 05:11 PM
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I think it is fine, only very tough for a healing priest and they keep us all alive.

Devotion Forces tree is far worse point for point, outrageous for what you get at the cost.



Miles


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Dave
post Feb 9 2018, 05:23 PM
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Total heal = major healing
Cure crit = handbook


Game solved


Thanks


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DanM
post Feb 9 2018, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE(Dave @ Feb 9 2018, 05:23 PM) *
Total heal = major healing
Cure crit = handbook
Game solved
Thanks



I remember making this argument before total heal capping was introduced years ago

Cure crit replaces handbook total heal. TH becomes Major Healing and goes up to a 7th (8sp) cost

I'm sure I've argued for a 1sp cost increase on all healing in the past as well, just as it's too good when compared to other options, but that's a bigger thing


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AJull
post Feb 9 2018, 06:21 PM
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A well written dungeon could easily counter this multi class by not needing healing so much.
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BBB
post Feb 9 2018, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE(AJull @ Feb 9 2018, 06:21 PM) *
A well written dungeon could easily counter this multi class by not needing healing so much.


Or rather make casting stuff other than healing effective.

I think it means a different approach to how people play and how dungeons are statted.

Fundamentally if more small handbook miracles work (e.g. Halt, VoP, Fear) then it will be used for that sort of thing.

If everything seems to fail then Priests will resort to the old tried and tested Q&T method where healing basically works.

Personally I think 1/5 minutes is a bit Over Powered for spirits. It seems balanced for Mana and EP (although I've yet to play a character with either of those versions)

I think 1/10 minutes would be more balanced.

Its a very good buy for 600pts

Even my "crippled" version for Clive works really well for him and allows him to be useful all day with whatever he chooses to "specialise" in that day and to do interesting stuff with his "real" spirits.

BBB


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BBB
post Feb 9 2018, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE(Carlo @ Feb 9 2018, 02:40 PM) *
Cost wise, it’s too good for anyone with healing.

If I ref an extended event, it’s on my ‘you may not buy this’ list. Along with immortal, tblp only or supernatural hits before T9.

Carlo


That is just a problem with healing...

I remember years ago when I wrote the 2nd(?) edition of WFA and expanded it quite a bit that I kept running into the same stat problem when coming up with new ideas.

Cool new "blanket" abilities worked fine for pretty much every sphere except when you got to healing and then it just would fall apart or be just overpowered.

Its hard to beat Total Heal and Total Heal has been clarified and changed on multiple occasions over the years and still, point for point one of the single most effective use of power in the system.

I think its probably wrong to view the issues of Vessel just in context of Healing, because it fails across the board.

60pts for a Total Heal is a bargain Devotion just makes it silly at 30pts, even more so before we had the Total Heal Cap.

BBB


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sonof
post Feb 9 2018, 11:04 PM
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I have, a lot, of notes on this (by Have I might been had). I did a lot of maths around the benefits of Vessel vs med and the like.

So here is a brief summary (healing follows after):

Cave dungeon:
You can cast in the brief for 6 spirits (be it from your vessel or using a transfer innate) and will cast a lot of handbook miracle it is comparable to buying innates with points of those miracles you cast a lot, but worse than devotion.

Overlands:
Like caves but you win out if you actually do an overland and don't have a 2 hour lunch break where you can't cast fast enough.

Extended Lengths:
You need to use a lot of handbook miracles and very few advanced/non-standard miracles to make it better than Greater aware, double and pure med.

And the issue:

Healing:
Yes it works really well for healing people. However for a dedicated healer its not as good as devotion to the tree in most situations for a caves dungeons.
For extended lengths its good but it really limits you to handbook healing as investing in vessel and greater aware is very expensive.


Now in all of this there are ways around it, but lets be honest here:

Warriors want to hit things.
Warriros want to be healed.

Casters want to cast things.
Very few people actually want to play someone that just heals warriors.

Vessel lets you either:
Be a priest that can do stuff all day long, since a warrior can do quad, or
Cast healing with the power from it and let the warriros have fun.

And to end, all it takes to break a Vessel character is the need to cast 20 spirits quickly and then a constant attrition over the day. Especially if they are an extended length character with vessel not med. 3 heals and 3 totals in the morning defender ruins a healing priests curve with vessel on a 750 spend.

Lee




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Kail
post Feb 11 2018, 08:21 AM
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I have no where near as much problem with vessel as I do supernatural only at low level. Being a party healer isn't popular and vessel helps people play that role and have fun. You could put in the restriction vessel spirits can't be used on yourself to stop a priest gone warrior becoming a self sufficient h
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Edd
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BBB
post Feb 11 2018, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE(Kail @ Feb 11 2018, 08:21 AM) *
I have no where near as much problem with vessel as I do supernatural only at low level. Being a party healer isn't popular and vessel helps people play that role and have fun. You could put in the restriction vessel spirits can't be used on yourself to stop a priest gone warrior becoming a self sufficient h
Character.

Edd


What's the problem with being self sufficient in healing?

BBB



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