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Abel
post Jan 3 2018, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE(BBB @ Jan 3 2018, 12:48 PM) *
I entirely see what you're getting at but it really depends on the reason for being immune.

For instance the Elf should blasé the Pure Priest who has been hitting him with a Pure Spirit Weapon.
The same Priest if spirit formed should ignore said Elf.
The immovable Golem who feels no pain has no reason to react to weapon blows other than maybe a bit of disdain.

There are valid roleplay reasons to ignore blows.

For instance I tended to ignore all blows except from the person I was directly berserking against as Vayle because he did not feel pain and, by the same token he rarely bothered to heal himself unless someone else pointed out to him that he was wounded because he didn't feel pain / notice.

I try to always react to blows as any of my flesh and blood / Human characters (which is most of them!).

But that shouldn't degenerate into a tedious fighting style because that is one of those things that just takes the joy out of the game and can drag those around out of their immersion.

HOWEVER the point is Torrent doesn't make you immune to damage, you are being damaged and should roleplay that accordingly, even if the net OOC Mechanism is that you are not in any danger from the encounter you are being wounded.

BBB

This. A hundred times this. BBB, the voice of reason, behind you 100% on this topic fella.

Deal with the points app, not the system. This has been a problem on other issues and they went wrong. Punish the player, not the game.

If a player is fighting dangerously, their weapon skills should be taken away. If a player is fighting rubbish (no parries, etc) take away his defensive skills. Simples.

Immune to bruising is rubbish, but it doesn't need to go, it's a choice to have it or not.


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isbiraven
post Jan 3 2018, 02:51 PM
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Completely agree with BBB... Well put good sir.
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Kail
post Jan 3 2018, 04:39 PM
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I like the idea of you always take 1 point a blow if you are affected by the power base. It would make me monster no max's.

Or you loose 2 points for every encounter you are immune to as you aren't involved with it.

I'd also cap the amount of time you can have your hand in the air in a day or you loose points for nor engaging.

Edd
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Forefallen
post Jan 3 2018, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE(BBB @ Jan 3 2018, 12:48 PM) *
I entirely see what you're getting at but it really depends on the reason for being immune.

For instance the Elf should blasé the Pure Priest who has been hitting him with a Pure Spirit Weapon.
The same Priest if spirit formed should ignore said Elf.
The immovable Golem who feels no pain has no reason to react to weapon blows other than maybe a bit of disdain.

There are valid roleplay reasons to ignore blows.

For instance I tended to ignore all blows except from the person I was directly berserking against as Vayle because he did not feel pain and, by the same token he rarely bothered to heal himself unless someone else pointed out to him that he was wounded because he didn't feel pain / notice.

I try to always react to blows as any of my flesh and blood / Human characters (which is most of them!).

But that shouldn't degenerate into a tedious fighting style because that is one of those things that just takes the joy out of the game and can drag those around out of their immersion.

HOWEVER the point is Torrent doesn't make you immune to damage, you are being damaged and should roleplay that accordingly, even if the net OOC Mechanism is that you are not in any danger from the encounter you are being wounded.

BBB


This, well said.

There are good reasons to be immune to something, torrent doesn't make you immune though..

I think you've found a winner Lee smile.gif


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Kurai - Amlesian Monk
Jata - Amlesian Troll Shaman
Laurelion - Ebony Drave Silver/Jade Wizard
Killian - Half Dark Elf Red Warlock
Joshua De Fontaine - Pure Priest/Legendary Shaehan Assassin
Sun'so - Amlesian Wizard
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MattWest
post Jan 8 2018, 11:49 PM
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Healing torrents are not a numerical damage reduction but they do exactly everything that the limit on numerical damage reductions was meant to curb... I suppose except if the damage would actually kill you (too late to heal you after you're dead? - unlikely to happen if you're on your feet to start with and have live-to-minus) or if it's perm. So whether we call them numerical damage reductions or not they should count as filling the numerical damage reduction slot. It would feel right to me to say that they can't normally cure more than 50% of the net damage from the blow that triggers them - and strictly speaking are not capped at 12 points (but good luck points-apping Torrent of Heal...).

A few times a day letting them heal more than 50% of the trigger blow for 5 mins at a time... fine, let it count towards your Total Heal Cap? 5 mins of breaking some normal limit for Torrent healing, counts instead of a Total Heal innate. How about that?

Or if you actually have to do the verbal there and then on the spot, then I think that's fine, no need to limit that ability more, because it means the person isn't fighting, so as the monster you feel as if you are making a difference, at least keeping them busy.

I like Ed's suggestion of losing 2 points per encounter you are totally immune to, but I think it should only be 1 point, not 2, since you can still be roleplaying etc. despite your godlike immunity to the System, you have still gone to the trouble of costuming up, you can still apply brainpower to the situation etc. So if there are 40 encounters in a dungeon and you are immune to all of them, you could still get 55 points if you look the business and roleplay like you think your last name is Stanislavsky.

Caveat, I probably don't really know what I'm talking about...

Sometimes people would like to parry but they are just full of fail. I know from bitter personal experience that this can be due to honest incompetence!! I think taking away their parrying ability as a response to that would be a bit Draconian.

Sometimes people would like to RP well including reacting to blows, but they are in the middle of a high adrenaline encounter, with a head full of stats, trying desperately not to cheat in terms of the basic mechanics of the game and also trying to hit and not get hit. All around them other people, including monsters, may be a bit hit-and-miss in reacting to blows too. So again taking away their ability to parry as a response could be Draconian. A few points off their possible 95 at the end of the day fair enough, as an incentive so people are reminded to foster the right atmosphere, but let's keep a sense of proportion.


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IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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fatteacher
post Jan 9 2018, 08:16 AM
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Reacting to blows - what about monsters?
Non-sentient monsters that hang back and use timing to get blows in on characters.
Sentient, pain feeling monsters ignoring all blows as if they were 1st generation berserkers
(Yes I know I have been guilty of this when crewing too)
Worth having a ‘monster motivation’ line on dungeons?


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Darkended
post Jan 9 2018, 10:15 AM
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There normally is a monster motivation line dungeon encounters. Unfortunately when it comes to ultra level events that is more likely to go out the window as there is a mentality to do whatever you can to try and affect/ harm the party.

BUT, that stems directly from the fact that monsters seem practically a pointless addition to dungeons when the entire party are effectively immune all day long.

None of the issues here are present IMO in the lower levels.


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MattWest
post Jan 10 2018, 12:15 AM
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You do sometimes wonder as a monster on an ultra - if I am totally incapable of threatening the party anywhere near enough for them to actually be worried, is all this free exercise I'm getting actually doing anything to make their day more fun?? Making their day more fun being the main point of monstering for them.

But you might be affecting them more than you realise. They can no-effect your blows, but it uses mana. They can shrug off your stopping effects, but they're taking determination damage. They can be totally immune to you but it's burning through their mantic power. And there's usually, well, often anyway, someone weak enough in the party that the others occasionally bother to defend them.

I guess ultimately if they weren't getting something out of it they would play a lower threshold, and you need monsters at least the same as you need scenery...


--------------------


OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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BBB
post Jan 10 2018, 10:21 AM
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QUOTE(MattWest @ Jan 10 2018, 12:15 AM) *
You do sometimes wonder as a monster on an ultra - if I am totally incapable of threatening the party anywhere near enough for them to actually be worried, is all this free exercise I'm getting actually doing anything to make their day more fun?? Making their day more fun being the main point of monstering for them.

But you might be affecting them more than you realise. They can no-effect your blows, but it uses mana. They can shrug off your stopping effects, but they're taking determination damage. They can be totally immune to you but it's burning through their mantic power. And there's usually, well, often anyway, someone weak enough in the party that the others occasionally bother to defend them.

I guess ultimately if they weren't getting something out of it they would play a lower threshold, and you need monsters at least the same as you need scenery...


The enjoyment you get at the Ultra End of the system is different to the low, to the mid and the whole gamut in between.

Some people have no interest in the Top end, some people have no interest in the low end.

Some people are happy to take the differing challenges at either end.

The problem is Monstering an Ultra Dungeon as a non Ultra Player is probably profoundly boring because you probably don't realise how effective you may be and its a very different experience to monstering lower levels.

An issue exacerbated on a standard double length is that a higher level character has so many more "tricks" / innates or power to call on.

At a certain point dying is down to roleplay and choosing to for whatever reason. I'm pretty sure that all the res chance I've lost in recent years as my two highest characters have been down entirely to roleplay choices rather than stats (not to say I haven't had close calls - Last Panama Dungeon was filled with them for me and my slightly less than optimal spend).

BBB


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JamesC
post Jan 10 2018, 11:32 AM
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It seems by the time you reach the Ultras there is a good chance that the front line will be in AC12, have a 12 point numerical, a 1/2 fractional and a 66% percentile. At that point even a 10 does only 8 points a blow.

It seems that the abilities mentioned in this thread are more useful in the low and mid areas as they effectively reduce damage by grades and are replacements for the natural abilities of the ultras. Personally I would like to see these type of skills replace one of the 4 normal means of defence, be much easier for me to work out how hurt I am if I knew that Bedazzle gave me a 12 point numerical rather than having to guess the monsters weapon masteries or ask later. I see no reason why all defensive style spells shouldn't be brought into one of the 4 defences on par with spells like plate self and shield. Its the fact they are extras outside the norm that brings around situations that can be abused.


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RobDonnison
post Jan 10 2018, 01:17 PM
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I personally don't see an issue with torrents. There aren't a huge number of people who have them and generally I've seen people still trying to fight properly with them going. As has been said, it's also trivial to get rid of a torrent from someone and I saw a lot of monsters over the FD healing each other, who could have thrown in a cheeky cure minor at a player.

As BBB said, the perception of the higher end of the system is a little different... There will obviously be exceptions, however generally everything is using power or innates that keeps characers going. At the lower end of the system the power is more finite and so players are more cautious throughout. At the higher end of the system things tend to look fine until the power runs out. The players may all look fine and like nothings hurting them, but power is still being used and I have seen from both a player and monster perspective quite how much of an impact encounters can have. How quickly Tirama can end up having to med in haven shows that a lot of impact can still be made.

Also, torrent is more expensive than a total heal so can be much less efficient on a warrior with the standard reductions than just waiting until the end of a fight. I would more agree that the way people can react with them is the issue over the stats side of things.

As a player, I try to make sure the monsters are having a good time as well as the players because they are helping out. As my druid I do have torrent and will generally try to fight properly and react. If the damage grades are not dangerous while it's up I still try and make the fight enjoyable even if it is just by making monsters laugh.

As a monster, I'm there to give the players a good time and am happy that I'm getting a few credits and monster points as a thank you. Generally people will also offer lunch and a pint at the end, which is a nice little bonus when it happens, but I'm equally happy when it doesn't. Getting to spend time with mates and meeting new people is why I enjoy the caves so whether or not I'm making players use all their power doesn't really matter.

Monsters at the higher end of the system are as appreciated as the lower end, if not more so because they can be harder to come by. If they weren't there then it would basically be table top in costume.

The trouble with the perception of higher level characters is that the response can be just to increase damage grades assuming everyone laughs in the face of quad. All that does is reduce the number of players getting fully involved in the fight and so a couple of people use power ups and get a total rather than 5 or 6 people.

I've waffled too much now so I'll stop. :-)

Rob
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Benson
post Jan 10 2018, 02:21 PM
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I say just get rid of them and whilst your at it - immune bruising, adding a system minimum of 1point a blow (if you can affect the powerbase).

My view is from my monster perception; it's a high enough hit system as it is, I understand that some fundamentals cant be changed like playing the "play base" game.

Though by getting rid of the two above it would increase my monster enjoyment knowing putting in a massive physical effort of ducking and weaving, jumping in and out etc and making fights cool knowing that I'm denting the armour much more fun...

My 2p's worth.

R
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Forefallen
post Jan 10 2018, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE(RobDonnison @ Jan 10 2018, 01:17 PM) *
I personally don't see an issue with torrents. There aren't a huge number of people who have them and generally I've seen people still trying to fight properly with them going. As has been said, it's also trivial to get rid of a torrent from someone and I saw a lot of monsters over the FD healing each other, who could have thrown in a cheeky cure minor at a player.

As BBB said, the perception of the higher end of the system is a little different... There will obviously be exceptions, however generally everything is using power or innates that keeps characers going. At the lower end of the system the power is more finite and so players are more cautious throughout. At the higher end of the system things tend to look fine until the power runs out. The players may all look fine and like nothings hurting them, but power is still being used and I have seen from both a player and monster perspective quite how much of an impact encounters can have. How quickly Tirama can end up having to med in haven shows that a lot of impact can still be made.

Also, torrent is more expensive than a total heal so can be much less efficient on a warrior with the standard reductions than just waiting until the end of a fight. I would more agree that the way people can react with them is the issue over the stats side of things.

As a player, I try to make sure the monsters are having a good time as well as the players because they are helping out. As my druid I do have torrent and will generally try to fight properly and react. If the damage grades are not dangerous while it's up I still try and make the fight enjoyable even if it is just by making monsters laugh.

As a monster, I'm there to give the players a good time and am happy that I'm getting a few credits and monster points as a thank you. Generally people will also offer lunch and a pint at the end, which is a nice little bonus when it happens, but I'm equally happy when it doesn't. Getting to spend time with mates and meeting new people is why I enjoy the caves so whether or not I'm making players use all their power doesn't really matter.

Monsters at the higher end of the system are as appreciated as the lower end, if not more so because they can be harder to come by. If they weren't there then it would basically be table top in costume.

The trouble with the perception of higher level characters is that the response can be just to increase damage grades assuming everyone laughs in the face of quad. All that does is reduce the number of players getting fully involved in the fight and so a couple of people use power ups and get a total rather than 5 or 6 people.

I've waffled too much now so I'll stop. :-)

Rob


This


--------------------
Tarek - Ishmaic Psi/dancer Golem -
Kurai - Amlesian Monk
Jata - Amlesian Troll Shaman
Laurelion - Ebony Drave Silver/Jade Wizard
Killian - Half Dark Elf Red Warlock
Joshua De Fontaine - Pure Priest/Legendary Shaehan Assassin
Sun'so - Amlesian Wizard
Amatir - Mortimancer
Sparek - Black/Brown/Silver Faerie Blanket
Alfie Autumn - Human Mystic with a twist
Hilliam Wunt - Lets not talk about this one...
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