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Dave
post Jan 2 2018, 12:21 PM
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I think immune to bruising is fine... esp if you’re a first class warrior in heavy armour x2.

I think the solution is fairly easy. It’s a numerical, if you’re a warrior max 12 points numerical, caster 9 points.


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Will
post Jan 2 2018, 05:24 PM
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The problem with torrents being numerical is the "where do you stop" progression. What about bedazzle and similar? Ebon tendrils? I guess the bigger reason that torrents are harder is because they come last rather than first. But I would worry that toying around too hard with the mechanics of torrent would mean it's hard to justify not altering other standard things that are very similar, which opens a huge can of worms. Now if that's the route to go down then sure, cool, big system changes.

But it feels a better to do a more simple fix of significantly limiting torrents rather than changing how they work.


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dnsmantra
post Jan 2 2018, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE(MattJ @ Jan 2 2018, 12:04 PM) *
Remove immunity to bruising from the system - torrents don't heal bruising damage. In my opinion this solves many problems.


I'd just remove torrents or if you really have to keep them then make them both damage reductions and not heal bruising. Tbh I'd make bedazzle a numerical and frankly everything that reduces damage in some way or another (whatever it is) either a numerical, percentile or fractional. You get to pick your three, not have three + several other 'pseudo-reductions' that get around this. Damage reductions (and consequently the average damage grade you encounter at any given dungeon level) have spiralled over the last 10 - 15 years or so and this would be a reasonable way of reigning them in somewhat.

I'd also go further and make bruising 1pt per grade and remove immune to bruising in all its forms. That way even at higher levels people are still taking a meaningful amount of damage to require parrying / fighting properly.

I think there's a wider discussion to be had about power creep and how the system scales far quicker today than it ever has done before (which means characters hit the 'unplayable/tedious' range ever quicker). Characters, even as low as 1500 and 3k are vastly more powerful than they were 10 - 15 years ago.

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BBB
post Jan 2 2018, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE(Will @ Jan 2 2018, 05:24 PM) *
The problem with torrents being numerical is the "where do you stop" progression. What about bedazzle and similar? Ebon tendrils? I guess the bigger reason that torrents are harder is because they come last rather than first. But I would worry that toying around too hard with the mechanics of torrent would mean it's hard to justify not altering other standard things that are very similar, which opens a huge can of worms. Now if that's the route to go down then sure, cool, big system changes.

But it feels a better to do a more simple fix of significantly limiting torrents rather than changing how they work.


Torrent is completely different to Bedazzle or Ebon Tendrils which are offensive spells that grant a defence. Being offensive spells they have very simple standard limitations / counters

Bedazzle - There is an Immunity to it (Ask any White Wizard who's discovered part way through a Battleboard "Oh they were Battle Masters / had immunity to loss of Masteries")
Ebon Tendrils - There is a very simple way to negate it: Use Weapon Masteries.

The only way to counter Torrent is say the damage being inflicted is perm, which is a bit of a goat way to go as a counter because it penalises everyone, effects all ways of healing and given Imm to Perm Damage for Warrior Types is now a limited published thing wouldn't really have the desired effect!

As you say, its the specific miracle that needs addressing. We've had enough of messing around with large swathes of the system in the past just to smother one ability rather than simply fix the one ability.

BBB


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RichardCraig
post Jan 2 2018, 07:03 PM
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If only there was an ability to do 1pt per grade regardless of reductions.

Lets call it force of arms.

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Mart07
post Jan 2 2018, 07:19 PM
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Where’s that like button...



QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Jan 2 2018, 07:03 PM) *
If only there was an ability to do 1pt per grade regardless of reductions.

Lets call it force of arms.



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SamR
post Jan 2 2018, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE(Dave @ Jan 2 2018, 12:21 PM) *
I think immune to bruising is fine... esp if you’re a first class warrior in heavy armour x2.


Is it ever really fine though? No offence, but your respend as Fish (immune to triple below table 10) which is now standard is stupidly overpowered on a max 3k and led to many tedious encounters.

I mean when do you ever stand back and think that the monk laughing at elementals or the bloke in armour looks epic and cool ignoring and not reacting to blows. Along with the utter tediousness for monsters, the impact on dynamic of the game and the OOC blase-ness of fights that it leads to I don’t get what immune to bruising adds to the game.

Fights should be meaningful.
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Dave
post Jan 2 2018, 07:44 PM
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About as fun as watching most fights with you’re hand in the air then jumping in at the last minute...


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Fionamullin
post Jan 2 2018, 07:45 PM
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Variable points should be meaningful too.


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whiteknight
post Jan 2 2018, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE(Dave @ Jan 2 2018, 07:44 PM) *
About as fun as watching most fights with you’re hand in the air then jumping in at the last minute...


LIKE! Experience this more than ever - hand in the air all the time, literally. It’s just as tedious.

Can’t really comment on Torrents as never seen them....as far as the taking hits and not role playing - if you are that hard and tough and an xx hit is less than even a gnat bite why would you not ignore them? Maybe that is the persons role play - i think we stopped judging peoples role play a longtime ago - but that is a whole new debate is it not?

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fatteacher
post Jan 2 2018, 07:56 PM
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The immunity to bruising - you don’t necessarily notice a mosquito biting you, so I can understand an all powerful almost demigod / angel / abashi / tree / troll etc ignoring the tiny attacks of SOME monsters


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ChrisAndrews
post Jan 2 2018, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE(whiteknight @ Jan 2 2018, 07:54 PM) *
LIKE! Experience this more than ever - hand in the air all the time, literally. It’s just as tedious.

Can’t really comment on Torrents as never seen them....as far as the taking hits and not role playing - if you are that hard and tough and an xx hit is less than even a gnat bite why would you not ignore them? Maybe that is the persons role play - i think we stopped judging peoples role play a longtime ago - but that is a whole new debate is it not?

Rich


Fights are much less tedious when everyone's fighting in a cool way. Saying that you have to react to weapon blows to use any sort of defensive ability (as in even using TBLP/LOC) makes fights a lot better. I don't think that would work for the caves though much as I think it would be nice. There's a difference between roleplaying being hit and parrying because you don't want to take more damage. If nobody parries and just tries to hit each other as fast as they can it's also tedious.

As someone with torrents (but I never bought them as they're not tough enough) and power-up warriors I'd be up for just removing it or going with Huw's route of removing immunity to bruising & making all damage reductions use one of your three "slots". It would be nice to get the damage grades lower again.

Chris
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Trickyz
post Jan 2 2018, 08:25 PM
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For my two cents,

Having read all the comments on this post, I am really liking the idea of you always take at least one point of damage no matter what, as long as you are affected by a powerbase you should take some effect from it.

It is cool when you are so powerful that the hordes of tiny monsters do you no damage and it as though a young child is impotently pounding at you but causing no damage. I like it and it has a place but it should be limited.

I realised as I read the post that when I know I am actually not taking any damage that I don't fight with as much enthusiasm as my character is not at risk and having read the view of a monster its a fair point its not cool. (Side note: I am also terrible at remembering my damage reductions and frequently answer discern wounds with far too much damage because I forgot about x or y reduction - sorry healers and especially Duncan as Castille!!)

Anyway, I agree with lots of people here there should always be some risk. I would even be happy to see that you always take one point of damage regardless of the source.

If you are blasted by a massive magical fire ball should you ever be completely immune? If you are being stabbed by anyone surely there is always a scratch? If I cast a miracle that rips at your very soul no matter how well protected you are surely it is has some effect? A massive spear of wood infused with power gets hurled at 100 miles at your chest should you just be able to ignore it?

No matter how powerful a god you are surely a weight of numbers will hurt you. We can't really simulate a god being attacked by hundreds of peasants but if even a god took 1pt from every strike, from every miracle and every spell surely even a god might feel some fear? If they feel fear they will fight better and harder which would be cooler for the system.

Again it's just a thought.



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Will
post Jan 2 2018, 08:35 PM
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Not so sir! A cheeky cure wound and that pesky torrent is gone tongue.gif

Let's not get into personally aimed attacks people! Hand in the air is a perfectly valid life choice smile.gif Different people enjoy different things, embrace them in all their forms!

QUOTE(BBB @ Jan 2 2018, 05:37 PM) *
Torrent is completely different to Bedazzle or Ebon Tendrils which are offensive spells that grant a defence. Being offensive spells they have very simple standard limitations / counters

Bedazzle - There is an Immunity to it (Ask any White Wizard who's discovered part way through a Battleboard "Oh they were Battle Masters / had immunity to loss of Masteries")
Ebon Tendrils - There is a very simple way to negate it: Use Weapon Masteries.

The only way to counter Torrent is say the damage being inflicted is perm, which is a bit of a goat way to go as a counter because it penalises everyone, effects all ways of healing and given Imm to Perm Damage for Warrior Types is now a limited published thing wouldn't really have the desired effect!

As you say, its the specific miracle that needs addressing. We've had enough of messing around with large swathes of the system in the past just to smother one ability rather than simply fix the one ability.

BBB



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Forefallen
post Jan 2 2018, 10:58 PM
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I don't see the issue with people being immune to stuff, if that's the game you want to play and you've managed to do it then good for you! But don't make it [----] for everyone else by not roleplaying. There are of course exceptions to the rule...

For example an elf being smacked with a pure spirit sword /should/ ignore the blow, he might even laugh at the person doing it. Why not? It shouldn't break your immersion if that happens.

What is [----], and happened over Final Dawn, is people powering up to be immune to stuff, and then ignoring the blows.

I know that my power ups specifically require me to be actively parrying and trying to be defensive, so I can't just stand there and tip my fedora at the level 1 zombies doing double.

It's LARP, just role-play stuff, not that hard to get heads around <3


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miles
post Jan 2 2018, 11:16 PM
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Not to many people actually have it, but like all other powers that make you immune, it should not change your fighting style.



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dnsmantra
post Jan 3 2018, 10:45 AM
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QUOTE(SamR @ Jan 2 2018, 07:21 PM) *
Fights should be meaningful.


This. A hundred times this. As soon as they aren't the whole premise of the system falls apart.

Huw
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TimTreadwell
post Jan 3 2018, 11:37 AM
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Radically..... you always take, after all reductions, flim-flammery, torrenting etc etc, 1 point per damage grade if the powerbase affects you.

This might be reduced by 2 points if AC12 and immune to bruising?

Tim.
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isbiraven
post Jan 3 2018, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE(SamR @ Jan 2 2018, 07:21 PM) *
Is it ever really fine though? No offence, but your respend as Fish (immune to triple below table 10) which is now standard is stupidly overpowered on a max 3k and led to many tedious encounters.

I mean when do you ever stand back and think that the monk laughing at elementals or the bloke in armour looks epic and cool ignoring and not reacting to blows. Along with the utter tediousness for monsters, the impact on dynamic of the game and the OOC blase-ness of fights that it leads to I don’t get what immune to bruising adds to the game.

Fights should be meaningful.


I think its the not reacting/roleplaying the fights that is the problem...

Your immune to the damage yes fine thats cool... but the thing has still just smashed a huge hammer into your chest... rp accordingly.
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BBB
post Jan 3 2018, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE(miles @ Jan 2 2018, 11:16 PM) *
Not to many people actually have it, but like all other powers that make you immune, it should not change your fighting style.
Miles


I entirely see what you're getting at but it really depends on the reason for being immune.

For instance the Elf should blasé the Pure Priest who has been hitting him with a Pure Spirit Weapon.
The same Priest if spirit formed should ignore said Elf.
The immovable Golem who feels no pain has no reason to react to weapon blows other than maybe a bit of disdain.

There are valid roleplay reasons to ignore blows.

For instance I tended to ignore all blows except from the person I was directly berserking against as Vayle because he did not feel pain and, by the same token he rarely bothered to heal himself unless someone else pointed out to him that he was wounded because he didn't feel pain / notice.

I try to always react to blows as any of my flesh and blood / Human characters (which is most of them!).

But that shouldn't degenerate into a tedious fighting style because that is one of those things that just takes the joy out of the game and can drag those around out of their immersion.

HOWEVER the point is Torrent doesn't make you immune to damage, you are being damaged and should roleplay that accordingly, even if the net OOC Mechanism is that you are not in any danger from the encounter you are being wounded.

BBB


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