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JackFlashblade
post Jan 1 2018, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE(SamR @ Jan 1 2018, 09:48 PM) *
Whilst we’re at it I’d add a system rule that if you are affected by and inflicting a powerbase then you should always take a minimum of 1pt a blow to make combat always matter and get away from blase semi-OOC fighting encounters.


As much as I like the idea I don't think it would be practical to implement.

However, what could work would be that if you are affected by and inflicting a powerbase then you should always take a minimum of 1pt a blow if you choose not to react to it.


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BBB
post Jan 1 2018, 10:14 PM
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QUOTE(Ryan @ Jan 1 2018, 08:56 PM) *
Just a thought as I’m fairly sure I wrote the first one - mine only works one per x amount of time... your body can’t take it too many times etc. Maybe they should have all be like this rather than the usual escalation of each passed the last getting better and better?


Nah, I think Pete Walls had the first one as his Orc Zan. It was based on his regen. He had regen 1pt every time he took damage. I even think it might have been at will.

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fatteacher
post Jan 1 2018, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE(SamR @ Jan 1 2018, 09:48 PM) *
Whilst we’re at it I’d add a system rule that if you are affected by and inflicting a powerbase then you should always take a minimum of 1pt a blow to make combat always matter and get away from blase semi-OOC fighting encounters.

Sounds like the new W40k rules where enough lasgun shots can now fell a tank


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BBB
post Jan 1 2018, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE(JackFlashblade @ Jan 1 2018, 10:13 PM) *
As much as I like the idea I don't think it would be practical to implement.

However, what could work would be that if you are affected by and inflicting a powerbase then you should always take a minimum of 1pt a blow if you choose not to react to it.
Chris


That's way too subjective. Its easier to be one or the other.

To Be Honest though it should be really difficult to be totally immune to a weapon blow above your AC.

Abilities that allow it might need looking at because that is the whole concept behind how attrition works.

I can't think of a single standard way to be immune to anything above double if you are susceptible to the power base (I wait to be corrected by some obscure Neuronic or EP Evocation smile.gif )

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Dave
post Jan 1 2018, 10:30 PM
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Immune to triple wearing master crafted plate over chain.... what I still think needs to be real mans. None this light weight chain




QUOTE(BBB @ Jan 1 2018, 10:20 PM) *
That's way too subjective. Its easier to be one or the other.

To Be Honest though it should be really difficult to be totally immune to a weapon blow above your AC.

Abilities that allow it might need looking at because that is the whole concept behind how attrition works.

I can't think of a single standard way to be immune to anything above double if you are susceptible to the power base (I wait to be corrected by some obscure Neuronic or EP Evocation smile.gif )

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Ryan
post Jan 1 2018, 10:32 PM
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You can use immune to bruising with armour mastery at the right level I’m afraid BBB and bedazzle makes ac12 immune to bruising very tough...
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SamR
post Jan 1 2018, 10:40 PM
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I’m not convinced it would be that hard to implement - it’s a really simple rule e.g If you are doing physical damage and taking physical damage than you cannot reduce a weapon blow to less than 1pt.

There is nothing more immersion breaking, soul destroying and less epic than watching multiple monsters beating on a player who is literally just ignoring them and cracking jokes with the rest of the party whilst they apathetically quad the odd one to death every now and again.

Torrents are the most dramatic example of this mentality.

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darkrule233
post Jan 1 2018, 11:50 PM
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Gordon’s 4th point is actually something I think should be considered - casting a torrent makes you lose your weapon skills?
Would mean that if it made the warrior immune to the damage, they wouldn’t be able to harm the creature either; which would hopefully make some characters think twice about using it for party-constructive sakes etc.
Casters can use it as an addition part of their damage reduction, and it sometimes comes in really handy in niche situations.

Doesn’t sound too bad in my mind.
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Darkended
post Jan 2 2018, 01:56 AM
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A huge (And I mean majorly huge) reason why as a rule I utterly hate to monster for ultra level parties, is not (surprisingly) the complexity of the stats, but because of these tedious scenario torrents cause. It's hard to feel appreciated as a monster if people can't be bothered to even react to us. It's not just torrents I know but that is s particularly annoying one.

I can constantly and happily monster and fight a player all day who reacts to what is going on even if you don't take damage from it. If a player wont bother to react to me during, say, a defender encounter then what's the point of me even being there?

I'm sorry to say that this is a problem that crops up more the higher the points threshold you are ministering for. If getting rid of them gets people to stop ignoring the monsters in more encounters, then absolutely please remove them.


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dhurrell
post Jan 2 2018, 08:37 AM
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It’s potent so think warrants a level loss for casting. Or ‘due to strain causes on the body, a recipient can only benefit 1/day’

The concept is sound; perhaps to discourage the combatants playing it badly could say that those who attack another cannot use full benefit and 1pt/blow is incurable by these means. Divine Invocation sets a nice precedent about combatants not getting full benefit from such booms.

I don’t know what happened at the Dawn so not a comment on what’s gone on, but I think encouraging refs to judge and intervene on poor role play is always a good thing, including to say the miracle fails.

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icdhunter
post Jan 2 2018, 10:19 AM
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Minimum 1 point a blow, unless they can legally apply immune to bruising to the damage grade.

This means that they will be unlikely able to last the whole massive encounter on a single torrent as they will require additional healing, which drops the torrent.

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Will
post Jan 2 2018, 10:40 AM
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There's more than one way to skin a cat. Torrents are only part of a wider phenomenon.

The problem IMHO is that people can be completely immune almost all the time. Having the once a day innate that makes you awesome is very different to "I have a million power and awesome damage reductions so I'll torrent all day".

I think maaaaaybe there could be some wriggling around it's benefits being based on whether you're in the warrior bracket or not? To limit combining it with characters that are taking 3 points from an 8?


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DanM
post Jan 2 2018, 10:46 AM
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Surely no pts apps stack

So, unless you're only applying standard reductions then this is all a bit moot


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Stevelouch
post Jan 2 2018, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE(Will @ Jan 2 2018, 10:40 AM) *
There's more than one way to skin a cat. Torrents are only part of a wider phenomenon.

The problem IMHO is that people can be completely immune almost all the time. Having the once a day innate that makes you awesome is very different to "I have a million power and awesome damage reductions so I'll torrent all day".

I think maaaaaybe there could be some wriggling around it's benefits being based on whether you're in the warrior bracket or not? To limit combining it with characters that are taking 3 points from an 8?


Not exactly up with all the current system but it does seem that there are many very powerful ways to be immune or virtually so for the duration and many ways to get power back again.

Not even heard the term torrent before so I must be out of date.

I could be wrong and that there are many new warrior damage reductions and power ups that compensate?

The new books have opened up lots of decent published abilities and races etc now.

Is it how these spells/miracles etc are being layered or stacked or that they can be cast on people who already have many reductions themselves?

Should they be like Rockskin where it is that ability or your own reductions but not both?

I am not sure want to play any of my power users in the system now as they are so out of date they would not have any power left after an hour and not really a decent way of getting them back?

Is regaining power a big cause of these problems?

Castable power ups used to be a big chick of power which was hard to recover whereas now they are just an equivalent drop in the ocean powerwise.


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BBB
post Jan 2 2018, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE(Stevelouch @ Jan 2 2018, 11:02 AM) *
Not exactly up with all the current system but it does seem that there are many very powerful ways to be immune or virtually so for the duration and many ways to get power back again.

Not even heard the term torrent before so I must be out of date.

Should they be like Rockskin where it is that ability or your own reductions but not both?

I am not sure want to play any of my power users in the system now as they are so out of date they would not have any power left after an hour and not really a decent way of getting them back?

Is regaining power a big cause of these problems?

Castable power ups used to be a big chunk of power which was hard to recover whereas now they are just an equivalent drop in the ocean powerwise.
Steve


The big problem with Torrents are that they effectively bypass the 1 Fractional, 1 Numerical, 1 percentile damage reduction rule because technically they are not "damage reductions" you still take the damage and it gets mopped up after.

Perhaps we should just classify them as a Numerical Damage Reduction and be done with it - that would probably quickly solve all the problems as they become really only useful for power users who don't have better reductions.

OR just say they can't cure more than 72 TBLP in say a 1 minute period in a non-prepped Total Style. Still might be a life saver for the power user, less use for a Warrior.

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Netheril
post Jan 2 2018, 11:26 AM
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Quite like the solution that you cant inflict damage whilst under the effect of a torrent or it ends.

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Sean
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MattJ
post Jan 2 2018, 12:04 PM
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Remove immunity to bruising from the system - torrents don't heal bruising damage. In my opinion this solves many problems.

Torrents only cause people to not parry because they result in taking no damage. The same issue arises from people taking a double in AC 12 with immunity to bruising. The only way to make sure people parry is to make sure they're being hurt.

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Sharperoc
post Jan 2 2018, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE(SamR @ Jan 1 2018, 09:48 PM) *
Whilst we’re at it I’d add a system rule that if you are affected by and inflicting a powerbase then you should always take a minimum of 1pt a blow to make combat always matter and get away from blase semi-OOC fighting encounters.


Few people have quoted this already, I agree with it.

I've not really had experience with Torrents so my opinion might not be worth as much, but in principle they don't seem to differ much from numericals. If they seem to be causing a problem, either get rid of them or reign them into an existing system (numericals).

Part of the system arms race seems to be 'get immune to XYZ as soon as you can', which I guess explains why it can be difficult for refs to challenge high level players without going out-there with N/S. This is personal opinion but I don't enjoy the idea of walking around being immune to everything, it feels like non-participation. I understand the feeling of winning you get when you power up, or cast XYZ and encounter to completely counter something, but I think that only really rewards when it happens infrequently (everyone loves their grandstand moment). After reading the non-standards for the FD I was trying to think what I would do to challenge the higher level players, and the only thing I came up with was that Table 3 Immunities don't exist and for every X points spent on Table 3 Immunities you get a War-Cry, and whilst it seemed dumb at first the more I thought about it the more I liked the idea of being a little terrified again about the 'ghoul in the tunnel' and wondering whether I could spare one of my 12 War Cries against it.

On reflection the above is a really convoluted way of saying 'I think there should always be danger, I like Sams suggestion'


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Helsvell
post Jan 2 2018, 12:17 PM
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Torrents could become a stacking numerical damage reduction with the normal maximum of 12 points. That way it helps non-warriors or dual bracket characters which probably do not have a 12pt damage reduction.

Thanks,

Peter


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BBB
post Jan 2 2018, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE(Netheril @ Jan 2 2018, 11:26 AM) *
Quite like the solution that you cant inflict damage whilst under the effect of a torrent or it ends.

Cheers,

Sean


That's sort of the one I have for Tsu-Ling's Torrent Style regen innate, goes down if I harm a Mortal.

BBB


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