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sonof
post Jun 28 2012, 10:46 AM
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I have a semi-serious question on this.

Why won't it work via LRP? Yes some things need to be done in HotE and are pretty tricky to arrange through LRP, but couldn't it by done by arranging dungeons to deal with problems, and working with those people already playing HotE and engaged in the city council?

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BBB
post Jun 28 2012, 10:54 AM
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Specifically because its the one if those heroes posts that causes a city to start to fail if unoccupied in heroes. Its almost analagous to asking why you can't get points as a character for putting in heroes turns. Its part of the basic set up of the game and always has been. We just now have less people interested in actually doing it. Also Halgar, for (player related) historic reasons, is the worst city to try and take over.

It the way Heroes runs and its the sort of stat related stuff that is nearly impossible to make work on a dungeon. It would make incredibly tedious dungeons to play to emulate the useful stuff that really just needs a character to be present and seen in the city doing stuff "being" the governor in a non-mercenary way. A lot of other posts you can get way doing them via dungeons and many can be made to make sense without floowing boring plots Governor really isn't one of them, especially Governor of the Imperial Capital.

Changing that would require a fundamental change as to how heroes works for positions of authority.

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sonof
post Jun 28 2012, 11:05 AM
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Then surely it's time to think about changing them?

I can understand why you can't really be a craftenguilder just in LRP, and mennihaft would be really dull as well. However some jobs should be doable this way, and I can't see why Governor can't be one of them.

The CC's existance surely could allow for this to work.

I don't think having the entire council only exist in LRP can work, but some posts can work and I think governor should be one of them.

Or are people saying it can't be done because no one ever has?

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BBB
post Jun 28 2012, 11:07 AM
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QUOTE(sonof @ Jun 28 2012, 12:05 PM) *
Then surely it's time to think about changing them?

Lee


Something for the Senate to look at I imagine. It needs to be something done by those players it most effects I guess.

By the by as city's go Halgar is one of the most underdeveloped in the game, reflecting just how uninteresting it is to be involved with. It has a pretty bland character, it doesn't have neat interesting hooks like Deci, Bildteve and Alguz and thus has never had the levels of support both LRP and in HotE that those cities have. Which goes to show how uninterested people are in bureaucracy, its not very heroic either in LRP or HotE. smile.gif

And its biggest problem is a lack of continuity. All the aforementioned cities (along with Scarlene, Thimon and Keys) have had a continuity of guidance, someone planning and guiding the city that has been there since the begining, has access to all the historic information and studies and and takes care of the "boring" stuff.

The last few Governors have taken on the post IC purely because it needed to be done and their character would do that, not really because the player concerned was expecially enthused with doing it.

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Stuart
post Jun 28 2012, 11:16 AM
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It's fine. You can easily have 'joint Governors', one in LRP and one in Heroes.

Stuart
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giles
post Jun 28 2012, 11:23 AM
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I think you could do it, I think it'd be perilously dull lrp - you can't really even approach setting the bustle of Halgar.
Some cities lend themselves more readily to lrp be it by background, geography, character, some don't - it's not a failing of the system.
And yes whilst I agree, with a bit of imagination you could set it - but on an ongoing basis, without too much fudging ?
Happy to see if it can be done though, just think it might not be the most exciting way to spend your weekend. Then again it might just be because no one has tried or that the city doesn't, as Ian, says have an immediately obvious hook.

Giles.
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BBB
post Jun 28 2012, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Jun 28 2012, 12:16 PM) *
It's fine. You can easily have 'joint Governors', one in LRP and one in Heroes.

Stuart


However given the slow failure and degredation of Halgar in Heroes it does, as all cities do, need an active HotE Governor.

I've tried to imagine ways to use dungeons to bolster the boring Governor bits of a city and there is very little that can be done when its not a LRP playable plot (i.e. cannot just be resolved mainly with Quad...)

Fortunately for my main concern Deci, effectively has two and half* Governors, all fully active in both HotE and LRP

I suspect that fundamentally it would require persuading Alan to change the way cities have worked for the last 10 years to allow a bigger impact via CPs to resolving problems or just to keep things ticking over. smile.gif

*Sorry Mike... wink.gif

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giles
post Jun 28 2012, 11:25 AM
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Or as Stuart sensibly suggests - you can just re-organise the Council to suit what players want to do and how they want to do it.

Giles.
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BBB
post Jun 28 2012, 11:30 AM
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QUOTE(giles @ Jun 28 2012, 12:23 PM) *
I think you could do it, I think it'd be perilously dull lrp - you can't really even approach setting the bustle of Halgar.
Some cities lend themselves more readily to lrp be it by background, geography, character, some don't - it's not a failing of the system.
And yes whilst I agree, with a bit of imagination you could set it - but on an ongoing basis, without too much fudging ?
Happy to see if it can be done though, just think it might not be the most exciting way to spend your weekend. Then again it might just be because no one has tried or that the city doesn't, as Ian, says have an immediately obvious hook.

Giles.


Yep, as dungeons needing to be one constantly it would get rather boring, rather quickly, this coming from someone who loves the city management stat side of the game.

I've always looked at how best to resolve HotE issues through LRP. Owl ran the Inquisition as an LRP organisation when he was Lord Inquisitor. Every plot that reared its head had dungeons thrown at it (Remember the culmination of the Brood stuff??). Tsu-Ling did the same with a pretty wide range of plots that got whacked with the Lingathon 3-Days. I even found the odd Heroes plot that I could resolve through dungeon as Vayle. If it were possible to approach city stuff in the same way you'd bet I'd have done it years ago as Anath! I've even got pts apps for Anath for just that, which pretty much go unused.

BBB


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Stuart
post Jun 28 2012, 11:32 AM
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QUOTE(BBB @ Jun 28 2012, 12:24 PM) *
However given the slow failure and degredation of Halgar in Heroes it does, as all cities do, need an active HotE Governor.

BBB


Yup, I was answering Lee's point. You can easily have an LRP Governor - figurehead, symbol for the strength of the city, off fighting for the wellbeing of the Empire etc., etc. But you also need some poor sap to put in turns regularly to keep the city ticking over.

As an aside, Halgar has a really appropriate character which specifically comes from the fact it can't keep a Governor in place for more than a few years at best. Strongly loyal to Empire rather than one person, seat of the nobility, diverse and cosmopolitan. It's markedly different from many other places. It's a product of its history, same as Deci.

Stuart
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DanM
post Jun 28 2012, 11:33 AM
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If the right candidate wants to give it a go, I'm sure Giles and Alan come work out a CC contract that gives heroes stats


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BBB
post Jun 28 2012, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE(giles @ Jun 28 2012, 12:25 PM) *
Or as Stuart sensibly suggests - you can just re-organise the Council to suit what players want to do and how they want to do it.

Giles.


Which is the Deci Model of doing things and has worked remarkably well. We have a huge active council with more positions than a standard council. Everyone gets to do stuff that interests them and by careful planning what benefits them benefits the city and vice versa. The Forgetown project worked tremendously well for example.

I'm all for more positive LRP interaction effect on Heroes if we can manage it. Guess it would make for an interesting discussion with Alan over to the CC wink.gif *passes metaphorical Olympic Torch to Giles*

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DanM
post Jun 28 2012, 11:40 AM
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QUOTE(BBB @ Jun 28 2012, 12:33 PM) *
I'm all for more positive LRP interaction effect on Heroes if we can manage it.



smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif


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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
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sonof
post Jun 28 2012, 11:42 AM
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My comment was based on the "Needs to be a hote position". I'm not certain Governor ever does really. I do think you need to be able to do regular dungeons to deal with relevant problems, and a ref that can work out a cool way to do it and keep it interesting.

If you have a good mix of LRP and HotE players then it shouldn't be a problem.

Lee


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BBB
post Jun 28 2012, 11:45 AM
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Going slightly off at a tangent:

QUOTE(Stuart @ Jun 28 2012, 12:32 PM) *
Yup, I was answering Lee's point. You can easily have an LRP Governor - figurehead, symbol for the strength of the city, off fighting for the wellbeing of the Empire etc., etc. But you also need some poor sap to put in turns regularly to keep the city ticking over.


Sadly its lacked the latter.

QUOTE(Stuart @ Jun 28 2012, 12:32 PM) *
As an aside, Halgar has a really appropriate character which specifically comes from the fact it can't keep a Governor in place for more than a few years at best. Strongly loyal to Empire rather than one person, seat of the nobility, diverse and cosmopolitan. It's markedly different from many other places. It's a product of its history, same as Deci.

Stuart


Which is a cool way of looking at an exasperating problem smile.gif

I remember a really long time ago the discussion that was had that the Senators (before the Senate became filled with Governors) should just dual fill their roles such that the relevant Senator filled the connected role for governing Halgar. E.g. Lord Inquisitor as Stadtus, Chancellor as Craftenguilder, Warlord as Commissent. Things might have been easier now if that had been the case.

BBB


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DanM
post Jun 28 2012, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE(sonof @ Jun 28 2012, 12:42 PM) *
My comment was based on the "Needs to be a hote position". I'm not certain Governor ever does really. I do think you need to be able to do regular dungeons to deal with relevant problems, and a ref that can work out a cool way to do it and keep it interesting.

If you have a good mix of LRP and HotE players then it shouldn't be a problem.

Lee


Well it is primarily a HotE role, it will need admin via HotE and studies etc.


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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
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Stuart
post Jun 28 2012, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE(BBB @ Jun 28 2012, 12:45 PM) *
Sadly its lacked the latter.
Which is a cool way of looking at an exasperating problem smile.gif

BBB


I don't think you can criticise anyone for choosing to spend their money on things other than Heroes. It's mostly pure fluke that the cities with long term incumbents/councils have maintained them, and more strength to their arms. It does make it harder for other people to make a name for themselves in those places, as they're already tightly tied up by people who have spent years playing the game and, rightly, have a massive amount of influence and control.

Think of Halgar as being a land of opportunity, where a loyal citizen could work for a year or two and then become Governor!

Stuart
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BBB
post Jun 28 2012, 12:28 PM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Jun 28 2012, 01:16 PM) *
It does make it harder for other people to make a name for themselves in those places, as they're already tightly tied up by people who have spent years playing the game and, rightly, have a massive amount of influence and control.

Stuart


Actually Alan is surprisingly good at boosting newer players / characters, even in the such places provided that you respect whatever the culture of that place is there are always new niches to be made.

BBB


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DanM
post Jun 28 2012, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE(BBB @ Jun 28 2012, 01:28 PM) *
Actually Alan is surprisingly good at boosting newer players / characters, even in the such places provided that you respect whatever the culture of that place is there are always new niches to be made.

BBB



I had a few ideas that would have been interesting, just can't be arsed with another heroes character.

Although, truning Halgar into a personal demense... hmmm


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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
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dnsmantra
post Jun 28 2012, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE(DanM @ Jun 28 2012, 01:34 PM) *
Although, truning Halgar into a personal demense... hmmm


As our bad guy myths characters... as the start of "Invasion Empire?"... ;0

Huw
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