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> reverse sidekick, please dont kill me for asking about this.
Hulud
post Apr 1 2011, 10:46 AM
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prepare yourselves for what may well be the stupidest thing asked on these forums yet!


Despite only looking about 19 I'm actually closer to 37 and played maybe 4 times back when I was about 15. Since that time I popped back for a stag-do about 2 years ago (ish) and then again for the anniversary where I started a warrior called Valentine.

I had an amazing time and am now resolved to playing as often as possible (probably monthly-ish given all my grown up responsibilities), I managed to get back a couple of weeks ago but the only dungeon I had a chance at playing in was another pre 8th which meant I had to start a new character. I was planning on playing an Assassin but as the group had no warriors I stepped up and made a new warrior that was essentially a carbon copy of my first warrior with a different personality.

I've found I actually really enjoy playing warriors, I seem to be okay at it but I really don't want to have like 6 of them. On the 9th I'm going to be back again with some friends who I am re-introducing to the game, not all them could come so some others will come again in a couple of months probably. This means me probably having to start lots of new characters when to be honest...I only have 1 that I particularly want to play (at the moment)


What I would prefer to be able to do is play my 8th level 50pt warrior with my pre 8th friends.

yes yes you heard rightly!

Is there any reason why a character under a certain (arbitrarily decided amount of points) couldn't be dropped to 7th and rendered pointless (no pun intended) for a pre 8th dungeon so he/she could play a character they really enjoyed with their mates?

I found myself wondering how many people end up NOT playing on a given weekend because they don't have anything "low" enough? not just for a pre 8th but perhaps someone with 5k points would like to play but the only dungeons available are max 2500 for example.

The idea actually comes from a couple of the online superhero games so that high level players can "reverse sidekick" themselves down enabling them to play with friends that are lower level.


cheers all...


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Conroy Suman:Grey Wizard,Nicosia Roguri: Pathfinder,Valentine:Champion,Keyser Kint:Thug,Boone:Scout,Virgil:Oppressed Troll Ranger,Doris the Dagger:Drag queen/negotiator,Sid Snout:Editor of the Sunsday Snort.

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LucyH
post Apr 1 2011, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE(Hulud @ Apr 1 2011, 10:46 AM) *
Is there any reason why a character under a certain (arbitrarily decided amount of points) couldn't be dropped to 7th and rendered pointless (no pun intended) for a pre 8th dungeon so he/she could play a character they really enjoyed with their mates?


This comes up from time to time.

The main arguments against "spending down" are:

1) Higher level characters have the potential to have more resources (potions, cash items etc) that give them an advantage the lower level ones don't

and

2) Gaining points by playing dungeons below your actual threshold is a bit of a "cheat" because you are not exposed to the correct level of danger- e.g. I will spend my character up to 249, then earn 500 points on max 250s, then only play max 750s etc etc.

Also of course

3) You have to have one rule for all players and even if you aren't planning to abuse it in the ways above someone else may, therefore the answer has to be "No".

Lucy


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Kirsty
post Apr 1 2011, 11:06 AM
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Just get everyone to play a Max 250. The danger level isn't significantly that different, then everyone can play!

Remember new characters start at level 4 now so they're not completely useless!


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BBB
post Apr 1 2011, 11:16 AM
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If you can book a (full party) closed dungeon just have the threshold be a Max 50pts.

That way you can play what you want without serious issue.

If the referee is informed of who is playing what he can write a dungeon taylored to the party and your level difference won't be a problem.

BBB


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abyatt
post Apr 1 2011, 11:44 AM
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When we arrange advenures as the CMT we tend to stick to "standard" thresholds (pre=8th/max250 etc) just to keep things simple.

If anyone is looking for an alternative threshold then all you need to do is e-mail bookings@labyrinthe.co.uk with a few people interested and we can book it in the system as "other" threshold and the description can include the actual points threshold. This holds true for everyone at any points level (bear in mind though that there really is very little difference between a max 3k and a max 3,243 point adventure!)

So in your particular case, as someone mentioned, its probably best to e-mail or call to have an adventure booked as a max 50 points so you and your friends can all book on and anyone else can join in using the same threshold. Or as Kirsty mentions, just all book onto a max 250 and let the booking line know that there will be a few first time/recent returners on the adventure and we can let the referee know in advance so he can bear that in mind)

It's best to try and book them a few weeks in advance so there is enough time for a party and crew to form.

An alternative if there is 8 or more of you is to call and arrange a closed party booking - and we can then arrange the adventure to whatever needs to happen to have (within reason wacko.gif )

Andy


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Ezrekia
post Apr 1 2011, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE(Hulud @ Apr 1 2011, 11:46 AM) *
I was planning on playing an Assassin but as the group had no warriors I stepped up and made a new warrior that was essentially a carbon copy of my first warrior with a different personality.

Sorry about that. We were incredibly grateful though.

QUOTE
I found myself wondering how many people end up NOT playing on a given weekend because they don't have anything "low" enough? not just for a pre 8th but perhaps someone with 5k points would like to play but the only dungeons available are max 2500 for example.

I'm having the same problem. I've had a really busy few months and the only weekends I've been able to get down to the caves have been pre-8th as the only viable option for me. As such, I have 2 priests who are carbon copies, a third priest who is similar but not similar enough and I'm Druiding it up in a couple of weeks just for a bit of a change. I haven't yet played an actual post 8th dungeon. Still having fun though biggrin.gif

QUOTE(Kirsty @ Apr 1 2011, 12:06 PM) *
Remember new characters start at level 4 now so they're not completely useless!

The problem with this is that although 4th level characters might not be completely useless, sometimes first time players can be. Heck, I am.

QUOTE(BBB @ Apr 1 2011, 12:16 PM) *
If you can book a (full party) closed dungeon just have the threshold be a Max 50pts.

I'm sure that if you can't find enough players from your gang you can throw a shout out on here and some people will happily help bump up numbers. If you're playing Valentine rather than Camelus you can borrow Maia if you need her.


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Craigus17
post Apr 1 2011, 06:45 PM
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Points doesn't always equal usefulness. If I were to play a 1000 points wizard I'd still be pretty useless, whereas as a pathfinder I think I'd be virtually just as useful at straight 8th as a 1000 points scout. It's all about experience and what classes you know how to play.


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Harrumph
post Apr 2 2011, 07:52 PM
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Hi Hulud, you're not alone, I am part of a group of school friends who returned to the cave roughly 3 years ago (after 20ish years break), and keeping characters the same threshold has been one of the biggest challenges. One of the key points about the caves for us is we get to spend a day with long standing mates, who potentially you don't get to see that often (why do lives drift? *waggles fist in the air)

The main advice i'd give is have multiple characters, it really doesn't matter if they are very similar, no one will care if you have ronald the warrior and donald the warrior who are essentially the same character/roleplay but different levels/points.

A warrior is a good choice of character and can have pretty much any roleplay, but there are some choices you can make to add a small element of variation, for instance have you thought of being a half elf, or a troll, or maybe a grutuk. You could try a warrior subclass e.g. a monk, or a paladin, they are fighty and don't need extensive verbal learning.

You will learn more about the game if you try a little bit of variety, and pre 8th dungeons are great in that you are not expected to know the system and you can try things out.

We found as a group also, that one person can come once every 3 months, the rest of us could come once a month and there are odd occassions that you get a window that nobody else does, and if you only have the one character it makes this difficult, also characters die, and some of you will find that they've picked a character that actually is a bit limited long term and so you'll find to keep enthusiasm up you'll need to do the journey again (and you'll do it better due to gained experience)

My checklist for the group of once a monthers with family commitments is as follows:
1. Book far in advance - wives can't reall object if you give them enough notice
2. Don't worry about there being no warriors on dungeon, play what you want, this isn't an MMORPG, all the refs I've had have been very good at adapting dungeons on the fly (sorry if that adds extra pressure to refs)
3. You'll never reach 10000 points, don't worry about it enjoy the dungeon for the day
4. Explore a few characters, you won't care as much when (not if) you perm
5. Having a group of 5 or 6 is a powerful tool - you'll rarely get dungeons cancelled because when you book it guarantees 5 or 6 people booking straight on
6. A day with your mates monstering is a good laugh
7. Don't worry too much about thresholds - being 7th level on a max 250 is fine, being 75 points on a max 500 is fine you can still get stuck in
8. Get to know the other people on your dungeons OOC
9. Have a beer afterwards

just a few thoughts, I'm on your dungeon on the 9th and it's going to be a good day, play whatever you want, we are fairly short of scout classes so if you want to play an assassin do it, or play anything else you want to and don't worry in the slightest (same goes for the rest of your group)

I'm very excited about the 9th, it feels like a while since my last outing and I'm just looking forward to taking on whatever Hatch and Jonty throw at us (I'll be 4th level by the way so at the bottom of the curve too).

Richard
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Hulud
post Apr 4 2011, 09:31 AM
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Thanks everyone for the responses.

Ezri, luv, I had a wicked time and thoroughly enjoyed myself, it was cool so definitly no biggy!



I'd like to address Lucy's points primarily as they speak to the practical problems directly -


1) Higher level characters have the potential to have more resources (potions, cash items etc) that give them an advantage the lower level ones don't

and

I would have thought this could be solved by just saying if you downgrade to pre 8th then you have basic equipment available to a starting character only?

2) Gaining points by playing dungeons below your actual threshold is a bit of a "cheat" because you are not exposed to the correct level of danger- e.g. I will spend my character up to 249, then earn 500 points on max 250s, then only play max 750s etc etc.

Award the standard amount of monster points, of course monster points can be used to buy "points" but they would be well in line with the effort and risk.

Also of course

3) You have to have one rule for all players and even if you aren't planning to abuse it in the ways above someone else may, therefore the answer has to be "No".


thanks again for helping me understand the hurdles but I don't see anything that is particularly problematic unless I'm missing something?



p.s. Richard, definitly looking forward to the 9th and I am pretty much resolved to playing Camelus the Warrior on this outing...I just love being in the thick of it smile.gif


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Conroy Suman:Grey Wizard,Nicosia Roguri: Pathfinder,Valentine:Champion,Keyser Kint:Thug,Boone:Scout,Virgil:Oppressed Troll Ranger,Doris the Dagger:Drag queen/negotiator,Sid Snout:Editor of the Sunsday Snort.

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JulianW
post Apr 4 2011, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE(Hulud @ Apr 4 2011, 10:31 AM) *
2) Gaining points by playing dungeons below your actual threshold is a bit of a "cheat" because you are not exposed to the correct level of danger- e.g. I will spend my character up to 249, then earn 500 points on max 250s, then only play max 750s etc etc.

Award the standard amount of monster points, of course monster points can be used to buy "points" but they would be well in line with the effort and risk.


This is nothing to do with monster points.

A character is at different levels of danger and relative ability to affect the dungeon depending on how many points they are relative to the threshold.

If you progress up the thresholds normally you will go through phases of being weak for the dungeon compared to the rest of the party, then average, then strong.

Lets say you start with an 8th + 50pts character on max 250s.
You play one dungeon and are at the bottom of the pile compared to other PCs, you get 85pts. You are either at more risk or have to hang back and be careful.
Next week you play another max 250, this time at 135pts - about middle of the range and get 85pts.
The next time you play you are 220pts and the hardest character on the dungeon, you get to be the big man so to speak and are at less risk than the average PC. You get 85pts again
Now you are at 305pts and are too big for max 250s, you have to start playing 750s - at 305pts you are back to your turn to be the weakest character again.

If you could spend down at will, you could stay at the top end of the points range indefinitely until you were ready to jump to being at the top end of the next bracket. You never take your turn to be the little guy.

Julian


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Hulud
post Apr 4 2011, 10:46 AM
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QUOTE(JulianW @ Apr 4 2011, 11:39 AM) *
This is nothing to do with monster points.

A character is at different levels of danger and relative ability to affect the dungeon depending on how many points they are relative to the threshold.

If you progress up the thresholds normally you will go through phases of being weak for the dungeon compared to the rest of the party, then average, then strong.

Lets say you start with an 8th + 50pts character on max 250s.
You play one dungeon and are at the bottom of the pile compared to other PCs, you get 85pts. You are either at more risk or have to hang back and be careful.
Next week you play another max 250, this time at 135pts - about middle of the range and get 85pts.
The next time you play you are 220pts and the hardest character on the dungeon, you get to be the big man so to speak and are at less risk than the average PC. You get 85pts again
Now you are at 305pts and are too big for max 250s, you have to start playing 750s - at 305pts you are back to your turn to be the weakest character again.

If you could spend down at will, you could stay at the top end of the points range indefinitely until you were ready to jump to being at the top end of the next bracket. You never take your turn to be the little guy.

Julian



Yeah, I think I see your point. I'm not convinced it's a deal breaker for this sort of thing but I can see how some people might view it as playing on easy mode...

thanks again smile.gif


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JulianW
post Apr 4 2011, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE(Hulud @ Apr 4 2011, 11:46 AM) *
Yeah, I think I see your point. I'm not convinced it's a deal breaker for this sort of thing but I can see how some people might view it as playing on easy mode...

thanks again smile.gif


It's not just that it could make things 'easy mode' - a character at the high end of the points range has a bigger opportunity to make an impact and / or can simply do more than lower points characters of a similar class. So it's also a bit about sharing the limelight.

Julian


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LucyH
post Apr 4 2011, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE(Hulud @ Apr 4 2011, 09:31 AM) *
QUOTE
3) You have to have one rule for all players and even if you aren't planning to abuse it in the ways above someone else may, therefore the answer has to be "No".


thanks again for helping me understand the hurdles but I don't see anything that is particularly problematic unless I'm missing something?


this is a key point. There are 1000+ members of the club, ranging from people who have been playing 25+ years down to those who started last week, and from those who barely know who's who to the GSM's closest mates in the whole wide world. In order to avoid claims of favouritism and bias therefore, the GSM has to be apply a "one rule for all" regime to every situation.

Otherwise, I can say "well, if it's ok for *him* to spend down, then it's OK for *me* to do the same thing as my <insert class that is especially hard at 7th level relative to other classes> character, and the person next to me says the same thing and so on - and you get to the scenario where everyone is finding a reason to avoid being the fragile one on a dungeon, as Julian explained in his analysis.

It could also, potentially, leads to an awkward scenario such as a 5,000 point character "spending down" to play a max 1,000 in order to PK a specific character, or stitch over a specific group. Which is fine if you are at the same level, but leads to bad feeling if it's seen as the big guys picking on the small ones.

Lucy


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PhilB
post Apr 4 2011, 11:38 AM
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Juulian and Lucy both make very valid points... I really believe that the system and rules governing Labyrinthe should be as even handed and fair as possible to all club members - which does rather mean that we have to have a 'one rule for everyone' principle.

To further Julians point about character progression, different characters have different 'golden zones'. At varying points amounts, different characters have highs and lows where their relative power (when compared to other classes at the same points) works really well or has some big gaps. A good example of this are Unholy Champions. At just post 8th they are very much in a golden zone - they have 40 spirits worth of innates, enough life and armour to live with the front line and they get to hit stuff with a sword and shield. Compared to the evil pure priest (40 spirits, basic miracle list, no armour, low life and cant use weapons) the UC rocks. As the two characters gain points, the UC' life an d warrior capacity will not keep up with the front line warrioirs, and the Pure Priest will get more spirits, more miracles and be a significantly better priest.

Allowing people to battleboard down would allow people to manipulate what dungeons they played in and out of their 'golden zones'.

I think that this is a less important issue than both Julian's and Lucy's points - but it is still something that needs to be considered.

Phil.
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