Rules Changes, Should they be discussed before implementation? Options

[DanM]

I personally think generally discussing rules in public is good - however in some instances this doesn't work. There always has to be someone/a group of people who make some hard final decisions, which could be with the flow or against it.

Nothing wrong with the final decisions being made behind closed doors/in a small group.
Doesnt preclude an open discussion of the issues and why

[Kirsty]

Dan, the above sentence is ridiculous! Of course they are less informed as they havent been around as much and might not be aware of stuff that has happened in their absence.

Carlo

You can still be around a lot and be well informed about the system without reffing though. I would hardly say Dan (for example) is out of touch with the system just because he hasn't reffed for ages. He still a-refs and co-refs extended lengths and plays at least twice a month. In fact he is at the caves more often than people who ARE senior refs.

But I'm just using Dan as an example. People are gonna think I am totally biased but the facts are there.

I'm not too sure hun, I didn't think that there were any rule changes in the Grimoire. Although there were a couple of things that were clarified than changed. Again, I think with the fact that the Grimoire has taken absolutley ages to come out and there was a bit of a rush on it, lead to the fact that there wasn't a post that said this takes effect from 'xxxx'.

It doesn't excuse it though, I will mention though :-)

Jo.

As I said, one man's "clarification" is another person's "change". The things that are actually changed (as in the abilities no longer do what they did) are:

- Teaching scroll capping - has affected several characters, some seriously.
- Waterworld - has affected some characters in a minor-ish way
- Ivory warrior capping - has affected several characters, rendered at least one in need of a huge respend.

All of these presumably applied from the day after the announcement was made.

[Kirsty]

Has there been any official post to say...

"If you do have more teaching scrolls than you should because of the new cap... this is what you can do..."

Do people get a grull refund? Can they choose which ones they wanna keep and get the rest re-issued as 'un-read' so they can be sold??? Or do they just lose thousands of grulls-worth of investment?

So I saw the Grimoire updates, but didn't see anything about what you can do if changes affect your character.

[Benson]

You can still be around a lot and be well informed about the system without reffing though. I would hardly say Dan (for example) is out of touch with the system just because he hasn't reffed for ages. He still a-refs and co-refs extended lengths and plays at least twice a month. In fact he is at the caves more often than people who ARE senior refs.

But I'm just using Dan as an example. People are gonna think I am totally biased but the facts are there.

And not all people feel comfortable with Reffing, Monstering, A reffing is something to take into consideration.

I want to introduce monster points app's personally, to take down those powerful characters, me and Cotter have been discussing! We even started the anti Flashblade (Or anything with greenaway as a surname) monster Guild....


Rob ;o)

[Carlo]

Dan, the above sentence is ridiculous! Of course they are less informed as they havent been around as much and might not be aware of stuff that has happened in their absence.

Carlo
Really Carlo?

I can name loads of people who haven't reffed in ages, who would have a greater view of the system overall than someone who is reffing currently.

Surely, someone who refs more than someone who doesn't, probably, in most cases has a better understanding of things.

That's certainly how logic works. There may be rare cases where people who play a lot would be a better ref than those out there, but it's certainly the minority.

[TheFury]

" want to introduce monster points app's personally, to take down those powerful characters, me and Cotter have been discussing! We even started the anti Flashblade (Or anything with greenaway as a surname) monster Guild...."

Whats the guild item so far?

[ChrisAndrews]

Phil played on a random open 250 a couple of weeks ago, he monstered the whole christmas themeday, he regularly senior refs and doesn't actually get registered on the bookings sheets, he reffed the Claws of the circle fairly recently.

I am sure you can also understand that now he has the additional responsibilty of GSM and the fact that we have a child and I am actively reffing A LOT it really doesn't leave a lot of space for him to ref, however, playing open dungeons and taking an active part in the system by monstering and a-reffing when he can, is certainly planned for this year.

Jo.

I understand that he has a lot on and that you ref a lot and that makes child care a problem. I also know he monstered the themeday and reffed the Claws as I was involved in both. However, compared to other people he doesn't play, monster or ref nearly as much. I don't for one minute think that the volume you play, monster or ref is the sole indication of your ability to GSM but I also think you can't be GSM if you aren't seen to have an active part in all levels of the system. Playing, reffing and monstering should be part of the GSM's job rather than something he has to make time for amongst it.

This isn't meant to be a dig at Phil - I've got no issues apart from this with him being GSM, and I'm happy to accept that it's something you're aware of and he's trying to achieve. I just want to be sure that when Phil tells me that my new Crol Pure Priest can't use fore-arm parry and spirit form that he knows that the current trend for refs is to set things that you can only apply fore-arm parry to whilst spirit formed

Chris

[Benson]

So far, the first weapon blow of the day counts as 10 quads, that's my Favourite! (It saves you getting tennis elbow )


Rob


No more silly posts from me... !.... (blame the fury he enticed me to continue!)

" want to introduce monster points app's personally, to take down those powerful characters, me and Cotter have been discussing! We even started the anti Flashblade (Or anything with greenaway as a surname) monster Guild...."

Whats the guild item so far?

[Kirsty]

Surely, someone who refs more than someone who doesn't, probably, in most cases has a better understanding of things.

That's certainly how logic works. There may be rare cases where people who play a lot would be a better ref than those out there, but it's certainly the minority.

This topic is about players being able to discuss impending rules changes.

Whether you're a ref, senior ref, or just a player... it doesn't mean you know all there is to know about every race, class etc. But... if there is a potential rules change about something magical, then who's to say that me with a 2k wizard character, a faerie and a high wizard in the making isn't more qualified to have an opinion than someone who technically is qualified to ref but hasn't really played a proper wizard much???

Just because you ref every weekend doesn't necessarily mean you have a better understanding of druids for example than a person who has played one for thousands of points.

[Jan]

Publicising rules adjustments in advance, giving people a chance to adapt their character expectations and discuss the impact of those changes on a forum has to be a good thing. Doesnt mean that it means the discussion changes the rule change, but it does mean that clubmembers get a chance to come to terms with the impact of the change.

Ultimately the decisions regarding the rules come down to one person - The GSM. each GSM has pushed the game in a particular direction, and the sum of all those changes have created a highly successful LRP rule system which has been played for 25+ years. Not everyone will like the changes, or agree with the changes or even think that the changes were worthwhile considering the confusion or destabilisation the chnage might have on other parts of the game, but ultimately it is the GSMs choice and that decision needs to be made without being pushed and poked into a certain direction by dozens of differing factions of club members. The amount of personal stress that can be invoked by an organised campaign of arguments and whinges leading up to a decision being made is enormous, and frankly completely not required.

So, as someone mentioned earlier - once the decision is made, have 6 weeks of adjustment time, but no, the decision needs to be the GSMs. If the GSM cannot make that decision, then they shouldnt be the GSM, if they can, then we should accept and work towards their vision of the system for the next few years.

Jan
Ex-GSM

[DavidFisher]

I think Dan often comes up with good points that are worth discussing. Sadly, I also think sometimes they are communicated in a way that a number of people find difficult to see as anything but "trolling".

For myself:

1. I believe Phil is capable of making good judgement calls regarding Labby. He has been around a lot (he's old like me...). He is only 1 person making a contribution to the decision making, not judge and jury

2. I agree with Dan that it would be good to have a grace period for all changes during which they can be discussed. Even if at the end, they are implemented, all angles will have been covered

3. All changes should have a) a confirmed start date a structured method of quickly respending, getting grulls back or what ever if you are impacted

4. When changes are implemented, I would like to think the CMT / GSM are open and friendly about allowing players to respend, an attitude of "sucks to be you I guess..." is just salt in the wounds

Good discussion

David

[Chris]

Pretty much what Jan said I like <smiley face>

CC

[DanM]

I think Dan often comes up with good points that are worth discussing. Sadly, I also think sometimes they are communicated in a way that a number of people find difficult to see as anything but "trolling".

For myself:

1. I believe Phil is capable of making good judgement calls regarding Labby. He has been around a lot (he's old like me...). He is only 1 person making a contribution to the decision making, not judge and jury

2. I agree with Dan that it would be good to have a grace period for all changes during which they can be discussed. Even if at the end, they are implemented, all angles will have been covered

3. All changes should have a) a confirmed start date a structured method of quickly respending, getting grulls back or what ever if you are impacted

4. When changes are implemented, I would like to think the CMT / GSM are open and friendly about allowing players to respend, an attitude of "sucks to be you I guess..." is just salt in the wounds

Good discussion

David

Thank you David for making my points succinct. The original statement was just a statement, intended to spark discussion. Some people get defensive even when no accusation has been made. I'm sure if the same thread was created, with exactly the same points made, some responses might have been different.

I understand that he has a lot on and that you ref a lot and that makes child care a problem. I also know he monstered the themeday and reffed the Claws as I was involved in both. However, compared to other people he doesn't play, monster or ref nearly as much. I don't for one minute think that the volume you play, monster or ref is the sole indication of your ability to GSM but I also think you can't be GSM if you aren't seen to have an active part in all levels of the system. Playing, reffing and monstering should be part of the GSM's job rather than something he has to make time for amongst it.

This isn't meant to be a dig at Phil - I've got no issues apart from this with him being GSM, and I'm happy to accept that it's something you're aware of and he's trying to achieve. I just want to be sure that when Phil tells me that my new Crol Pure Priest can't use fore-arm parry and spirit form that he knows that the current trend for refs is to set things that you can only apply fore-arm parry to whilst spirit formed

Chris

I QUIT!!

J.

[abyatt]

sorting though the noise on here:

(i) where there are significant changes (as for when the Druids Way underwent a major overhaul) we do agree that there should be an "effective date" on the changes, and will undertake to ensure that this is the case (we're not expecting any major overhauls on any part of the system in the near future)

(ii) we don't beleive that the recent changes to the Grimoire constitute a major overhaul, as was mentioned when we published the change file. In this case we don't feel that the changes need an effective date applied

(iii) as with all rule changes of any kind, anyone who feels that their characters are adversely impacted then they should feel free to speak to the GSM about the options available to them (respend or no, clarifications etc). We will undertake to ensure that we say this each time there is a change, but if we miss this then it should be taken that the above will apply to any future change.

(iv) we don't believe that system changes can or should be made by committee, and whilst the GSM can and will seek to get input from a selection of players (usually the senior referees) he is not required to do so in every case

(v) these forums are open for all club members to discuss the game and the system and would encourage you to continue to do so, for system updates or otherwise. We may not reply, but we do look to read as many of the posts as possible.


There may be a small delay in answering e-mails to the bookings address over the next few days, please bear with us as you will receive replies, even if they are during late US time.

Anderw Byatt

[BBB]

Should changes be discussed publically - No

I disagree. The system is huge, affects a lot of people and no one knows it all. Big changes should always be discussed. This may or may not sway the final decision but more likely or not the reasons and mechanics behind any (proposed / eventual) change can be explained. Causes less resentment and less rumour.

Having a small cabal of informed players who help to make the final decision is good and neccessary. It couldn't work any other way but we have an excellent well subscribed to forum here perfect for discussion and looking at the history of things.

BBB

[Bruno]

Chipping in once again ignoring the general discussion - I was GSM for several years (7? It's all a blur...) - for a large part of that time I was pretty much sole decision-maker (and therefore chose to actively seek input from clubmembers! But might've done less of that if I'd been part of a working team [and maybe did do less when working closely with Jan for a chunk of that time, because he and I could bounce ideas to each other and be two-heads-better-than-one on potential changes]). I also reffed extremely rarely. I monstered here and there but not very regularly.

I like to think that as GSM and decision-maker I was pretty capable (the energy and engagement I gave to the role near the end of my tenure might be a different point but luckily we are not discussing that ). So clearly it must have been possible to be GSM and do a functional job without being a hardcore regular ref.

Hope that made sense.

Grace periods are cool.

[BBB]

Has there been any official post to say...

"If you do have more teaching scrolls than you should because of the new cap... this is what you can do..."

Do people get a grull refund? Can they choose which ones they wanna keep and get the rest re-issued as 'un-read' so they can be sold??? Or do they just lose thousands of grulls-worth of investment?

So I saw the Grimoire updates, but didn't see anything about what you can do if changes affect your character.

Indeed, nothing has ben said about HOW this change is implememented.

Can you only own X number of Teaching Scrolls?
Can you only battleboard X b=number of Teaching Scrolls?
What happens to the stock pile of excessive teaching scrolls?

I have already suggested to someone that they apply for "Keep all their Teaching Scrolls but the points saved by the Teaching Scroll is add to their points value for calculating dungeon thresholds" since they'd spent 10 years plus trying to get every grimoire spell of their colours as Teaching Scrolls

I'm also trying to work out a Second Teaching Scroll Salesman pts app for Anath...

BBB

[Kirsty]

No one is disputing the fact that the final decision on a rules change should be done by 1 person, or at the very least a small group. We accept that.

The issue is that we are a club, and as a club it would be nice to be at least a tiny bit 'in the loop' before we turn up on a dungeon to find out our abilities don't work the way they used to any more, or buy an ability with our hard earned points and then have it changed overnight to something we would never have bought in the first place.

The way I see it is that it would be good to announce a rules change, perhaps a month before it is due to be implemented. That way it can be discussed, slagged off, torn apart etc etc on these forums. At the end of that month the change becomes official. However a month's worth of discussion could bring up a valid point that makes the GSM or whoever think differently. It's like seeing something with fresh eyes. Someone may see something that you didn't notice before. So maybe then the rule won't change, or it will be amended again.