Open versus Closed Guilds. Options

[Craigus17]

If you cannot write and define the requirements for membership, then you cannot make an OOC ruling on whether someone meets the requirements surely? I hope this doesnt sound like craig bashing, because it really isn't, and the guild system has allowed your guild to be the way it is so according to the rules - you are free to make these distinctions, but how can you know who is going to adhere to your requirements if you don't say what they are? Telepathy?

as far as requirements go, it's nothing extra to what is published - it's simply making sure the player definately belongs in the guild and isn't being a munchkin and claiming membership just for the benefits. To me, putting the effort in to either come and ask me at the caves, posting on the guild board (when we get one) or sending me a PM is proof enough that they genuinely want to be in the guild (and how well I know or like the person has absolutely no relevance or influence)

Oh and so far it hasn't sounded like Craig bashing at all, simply friendly debate

[LucyH]

In terms of ref's keeping an eye out to make sure a character acts in a way that fits in with the guild ethos, this could be harder than it sounds to enforce.

It's part of a ref's job to ensure that character adhere to their guild restrictions andethos.
If the guild has clearly written restrictions, then it makes things easier for the ref to make the ruling.

Lucy

[JustinC]

I have no problem with restrictions on membership, nor on people signing others in to open guilds. The CotD has a very well-defined membership criteria, for IC reasons. I receive PM's and emails about membership and, to date, there have been no issues regarding people getting signed in.

Open guilds are there for a large number of characters, rather than a very small (say 12-20) people. That doesn't mean that characters leading those guilds shouldn't impose their character on them. Furthermore, signing-in restrictions prevent people from joining guilds for benefits when they don't meet the ethos/restrictions/requirements for the guild. This happens a lot. And yes, we can say that referees should check all this and bear in mind every characters guild choices throughout the day as he's refereeing, battleboarding and running a dungeon. But, let's face it, that's not going to happen because there's a lot to do already.

I personally don't think that signing-in restrictions engender a clique mentality. I don't believe that I have prevented anyone from joining CotD who has come to me with a sensible request. I have told Price he can't join as his evil demon. Shock. If I have a character that wants to be in the new scout guild, I'll PM the leader and, if he's not down for a month, I'll ask him to email the desk and get me signed in there. Problem solved. I don't see a clique forming around it because we can get around this 'contact difficulty'.

JC

[Bruno]

There's a difference between guilds which have a general member requirement and a bonus exceptional way for some extras to join via signature (CotD, Enclave) and guilds which can only be joined through signature, I think.

[jasonprice]

I have no problem with restrictions on membership, nor on people signing others in to open guilds. The CotD has a very well-defined membership criteria, for IC reasons. I receive PM's and emails about membership and, to date, there have been no issues regarding people getting signed in.

Open guilds are there for a large number of characters, rather than a very small (say 12-20) people. That doesn't mean that characters leading those guilds shouldn't impose their character on them. Furthermore, signing-in restrictions prevent people from joining guilds for benefits when they don't meet the ethos/restrictions/requirements for the guild. This happens a lot. And yes, we can say that referees should check all this and bear in mind every characters guild choices throughout the day as he's refereeing, battleboarding and running a dungeon. But, let's face it, that's not going to happen because there's a lot to do already.

I personally don't think that signing-in restrictions engender a clique mentality. I don't believe that I have prevented anyone from joining CotD who has come to me with a sensible request. I have told Price he can't join as his evil demon. Shock. If I have a character that wants to be in the new scout guild, I'll PM the leader and, if he's not down for a month, I'll ask him to email the desk and get me signed in there. Problem solved. I don't see a clique forming around it because we can get around this 'contact difficulty'.

JC

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jan]

/

[Jan]

I don't believe that I have prevented anyone from joining CotD who has come to me with a sensible request.

JC

CotD doesn't have a sign in by the guildmaster restriction for its normal membership though, only for weird not-reall-elves things, which is fine, you are ticking the box which says they are an elf, not ticking the box which says they can join the guild.

CotD is an enlightened organisation!

Jan

[LucyH]

there he said it hes a racists !!!!!!! ITS BECAUSE IM BLACK!!!! Phill Andy pls address this attitude in your club or i will goto the ministry of "got a chip on my shoulder because we were slaves", and have you shut down. and just to point out im not evil but chaotic have a bit of paper that says so, so i do fit guild res to be fair!!!!

Jay "fighting the fight against the man" /hand in fist fist shape lifted into the air, . for all my brothers fighting the fight.

That's about as valid as my argument that I can't join KotL because I'm female, and the guild restrictions are all about having "Brother" knights...

Lucy

[sonof]

Personally I think that open guilds should be broadly open. I am happy with any of the following restricitons, but think anything more is a bit to much:

1) Can just join if you fit the restricitons
2) Have restricitons that let most join, but if you don't quite fit them you need guild masters permission (EG wizards can join, but rogues/warlocks/other mana users need permission).
3) Must do a guild special to join.

I admit I'd prefer if point 3 were must do a guild special to claim benefits above basic tier to be honest.

Lee

[Jan]

Personally I think that open guilds should be broadly open. I am happy with any of the following restricitons, but think anything more is a bit to much:

1) Can just join if you fit the restricitons
2) Have restricitons that let most join, but if you don't quite fit them you need guild masters permission (EG wizards can join, but rogues/warlocks/other mana users need permission).
3) Must do a guild special to join.

I admit I'd prefer if point 3 were must do a guild special to claim benefits above basic tier to be honest.

Lee

Nicely summarised Lee, my position exactly.

[Pants]

as far as requirements go, it's nothing extra to what is published - it's simply making sure the player definately belongs in the guild and isn't being a munchkin and claiming membership just for the benefits. To me, putting the effort in to either come and ask me at the caves, posting on the guild board (when we get one) or sending me a PM is proof enough that they genuinely want to be in the guild (and how well I know or like the person has absolutely no relevance or influence)

Oh and so far it hasn't sounded like Craig bashing at all, simply friendly debate

So who are you exactly? I dont know you from Adam, Tom, Dick or Jason I got a chip on my should coz I ez black and you are oppressing me!

I turn up to play on one of those rare occassions that my KGB handler lets me out. I think hello... your guild has some nice benefits and meet the criteria I would love to join. However I cant as I dont know you, and your not around to sign me on. However yours is an open guild which benefits from that IC and OOC system that gives you these extra things for no reason.

Gee sounds like a clique to me. I say that is un fair, cliques are bad.

Of course lets say I do meet you and I ask ooh can my Wayfinder join please. You ask me a load of questions I answer them all and lie utterly as I would do IC if you asked this Wayfinder. You sign me in. IC i then rape the guild for all the benefits possible whilst if ever asked I am model guild member.

Personally I actually like the idea that IC there are people in guilds who are only there for the training and pay lip service. It is almost like in real life, you get cops who are do gooders and you get cops who abuse their power and are bullies?

In fact IC I may have appointed somone in KOTL to hunt down those who were only in the guild for power and to murder them horribly.

Hope this does not offend anyone just trying to show a different point of view. Unless of course it offends that Jason bloke who I dont know or like in anyway and I am sure stole my wallet.

[jasonprice]

Guys just make it clear i was one million percent joking and those of you that know would know this!! i would never for one minute accuse JC (who just happens to be one of my longest friends at the pit any stupidity). And has said he has had a few complaints about my post and for this i am very very sorry to have caused any offense to anyone, for those of you who dont know i work with abused children and anything like this thought are so far removed from my very being its mad to think any of you thought it was real post. but to those that did im sorry it was just silly banter. i hope this is enough to make you see that. if i did offend you pls contact me and i will apologize in person next time im down of on the phone if thats ok.

jason very sorry price

[LeeS]

/mocks Dan

seriously matey - I would love to join the Arcaanum as my wizard, but have no idea who you are in order to get it signed onto my card. Are you saying I would cheat and not meet written entrance requirements if no signature was needed? Referees enforce all kinds of restrictions, why notthe Aecaanum ones as well?
So Lee, I have a character who qualifies for membership, can I join the Azzizzi?

Erm you have me confused with somebody else, maybe that friend of Paul's who comes down once in a while, I have nothing to do with that despicable set of reprobates.

[MarkCox]

Its fairly simple.
There are guilds - ones with general open criteria are assumed to have little places, guild halls, shops, stalls etc where they will sign you up.
Others require that you apply directly with the Guild head, so they say "here we are! if you think your good enough/appropriate apply to so and so"
Others you find out by word of mouth, or rumours circulate amongst certain groups, you are then approached or you find someone to ask someone who knows someone [who then looks at your character card and signs you in]...

Look at the joining list and apply common sense, OOC view on such thing.

But to make it absolutely clear just because a guild is listed and guild benefits /restrictions written in a book availble for a few credits doesn't mean that every character knows every single thing about every guild. in some the ethos and training is well know KOTl, in others its more likely that no one knows of it unless told, White Wind etc. Its the same principle that not every character knows the words to all the spells in the book, nor how to disarm traps, nor read runes...

MCC

[DanM]

/mocks Dan

seriously matey - I would love to join the Arcaanum as my wizard, but have no idea who you are in order to get it signed onto my card. Are you saying I would cheat and not meet written entrance requirements if no signature was needed? Referees enforce all kinds of restrictions, why notthe Aecaanum ones as well?
So Lee, I have a character who qualifies for membership, can I join the Azzizzi?

Nope

Mostly its because it was an old restriction, placed by the previous guildmaster.

Now I'm using it make sure I get my bribe money

[Jack]

Guys just make it clear i was one million percent joking and those of you that know would know this!! i would never for one minute accuse JC (who just happens to be one of my longest friends at the pit any stupidity). And has said he has had a few complaints about my post and for this i am very very sorry to have caused any offense to anyone, for those of you who dont know i work with abused children and anything like this thought are so far removed from my very being its mad to think any of you thought it was real post. but to those that did im sorry it was just silly banter. i hope this is enough to make you see that. if i did offend you pls contact me and i will apologize in person next time im down of on the phone if thats ok.

jason very sorry price

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Loser.

Cotter

[Craigus17]

Definitely hit the point where I stop paying attention to a thread now