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> Ref Pay, - open thread
DavidFisher
post Aug 26 2009, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE(Jan @ Aug 26 2009, 04:55 PM) *
Out of curiosity, with the writting pay for a caves dungeon being 'up to 8', what should be considered the norm of a solid regular adventure? Whats the average as it were, and whats the 'pass mark', with those being two different things. Should i be traumatised by guilt if i fail to earn all eight, or if i get six should i have a warm fuzzy glow knowing that what people generally get without being the adventure of 2009.

I trust Robs work on dungeon reading implicitly and have always had good feedback, just curious how things will change with the new system, and I am sure he has ball parks in his mind already biggrin.gif


I agree here - a scale would be great

0 - Gah! - Isn't this the rubbish dungeon you submitted last week with a different title....?
1 - Okay, so it has enough encounters but this is really poor
2 - Makes little sense, bit of a zoo, too much cut & paste
3 - Below average
4 - Pretty good, here's how it could be better...
5 - Average
6 - Above Average
7 - Darn this is great stuff
8 - Top marks, very little in the way of improvement to be found

A scale would be good

David
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Sizel
post Aug 26 2009, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE(isbiraven @ Aug 26 2009, 12:57 PM) *
I hate this... I have never seen myself as an english lit student and as such I have never enjoyed handing in anything I write and that includes dungeons, I always have a writen dungeon and as somebody else has stated, while running it, it gets changed, having to go with the flow of the party ect so that a brill day is had by all...


For what it's worth, historically, the "getting the stats right" bit has always been one part of the reason written dungeons have been asked for.
Another part of it is the idea that accidents happen - that a ref could get run over in the car park and someone else may need to take over for them.
Having a written adventure to run from helps that process.

I don't think anyone's ever said that "once an adventure is written that's how it will run" - but it does help things run smoothly if there's a firm written foundation to run from & make adjustments to.

Back in the day ™ I remember monstering, a lot, for events which just were not written. Each encounter, after battleboarding, the referee would have to leave the party in Time Out and then brief the monsters. It meant we'd never have any real idea about what was going on. So, for example, the guard who the party beguile can't tell them that there are some traps in 2 encounters time, and the golem won't attack anyone wearing a purple sash. Because the information just wasn't available before we were playing the relevant parts latter.


QUOTE
this just feels as tho I am being forced to hand stuff in that makes me personnally feel like rubbish, I dont take crit very well regarding my writing (never have) and tbh just makes my feel stupid and gives a "why do I bother" attitude when reading the feed back.


If you don't find the feedback helpful I guess you could just not read it.
Or try talking to Rob about it.

A couple of people, when I was doing the job, spent some time going through things with me.
I'd say I learnt a lot from them, as well as (hopefully) helping them to convey their thoughts & ideas.

QUOTE
I just dont understand how somebody can talk about a stat or a rite or say this is stupid when they werent on the adventure and so cant see how it actually worked.


Sometimes someone needs to say "look, every single monster you've set today had 3 war cries. Isn't that a bit harsh for the person playing an undead raising priest on your max 250?"

Sometimes that person may not realise that it made sense in context because you knew in advance that the party would deal with this by knowing that the NPC faction loose the use of their warcries if you shout "Munchkin" at them...
No one's perfect.
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Pete
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StuartEaston
post Aug 26 2009, 06:01 PM
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I have to admit I've not read the whole thread and I'm not a regular referee however, from my point of view the caves does seem to struggle for referees at the moment. Cutting the basic amount a referee gets paid seems to be completely counter-intuitive to convincing referees to book on to dungeons to save them from folding. A lot of dungeons at the moment are being done by ref's booking on in the last week and cutting the pay seems basically to make it seem like less of a reason to spend a lot of that week writing out a dungeon or using another referee's dungeon and then perhaps getting less pay than before simply because you as the referee are doing the club a favour and havn't had chance to write out a perfect dungeon. Increasing the standard of dungeons and such is important but personally i think these changes will see a decrease in the amount of people stepping in to ref and ultimately lead to less dungeons being run.
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Fionamullin
post Aug 27 2009, 07:50 AM
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On the same subject -
I feel it's a bit harsh credit wise on the Desk staff.
Given we clean the toilets and the sinks empty the bins, deal with the usual desk stuff and look after peoples valuables, within reason, the drop from 12 credits to 8 pretty much means it is going to be a lot better to take cash - as that can be spent anywhere rather than credits - caves only.
Previously when I have desked I generally take a minimum of 1/2 credits, 1/2 cash so I can play more.
If there were perhaps ways Desk staff/armourers could earn additional credits on the day, or by prebooking that might make it a bit fairer.
Thoughts?


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RichardCraig
post Aug 27 2009, 07:58 AM
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so #i am still waiting for an explination as to how refs are getting more pay out of this?

If average pay for writing a dungeon in 4 credits and you get 6 on the day that 10 which is less than the 12 I normally scrape through reffing at the moment?

considering that almost all the things I ref are last minute favours to jo i'm never going to be eligible for the advance booking bonus.

shouldnt we just keep 10 credits fro reffing and then have a max of 8 for the writing, then the people who do a masterpiece get reward for their time and those of us who have had to knock something up on a friday at work arnt penalised.

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Bruno
post Aug 27 2009, 08:14 AM
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To be fair Rich, no-one has said that 4 for writing will be average - I think? I assumed (perhaps naively!) that writing credit pay would now be more likely to be like the rest of reffing pay - you get "the full amount" if you do the job, getting less than the full amount is pretty serious, getting a bonus above the usual amount would be for incredible efforts?

The only way the original CMT statement can be accurate ("Assuming a reasonably well written dungeon, for referees who regularly take cash as payment, this change represents an increase in overall pay and for referees who regularly take credits this change will represent the same overall pay") is if 'a reasonably well written dungeon' is paid at 7+ credits - right?

To Fi's point, I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread - it's clearly a cut for desk staff/armourers, so presumably this is because the CMT have found there's a lot of people willing to do this job.


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JoeLucas
post Aug 27 2009, 10:46 AM
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I don't personally come to the pit much these days so my opinion is probably of little importance, however i personally will wait and see how the new set up affects my pay before pulling it apart. It is easy to understand why so many people are concerned although i mainly take cash as pay and use writing credits to play with.

Surely for any one else in that position there is little to grumble about.. same pay + potentially more writing credits which is all good in my opinion.

for those people who take all or mainly credits please bear in mind that the cash - credit ratio as it has been is the result of very poor business management in the past pre current CMT.

The belief that the CMT should ignore this and just keep on running things poorly is somewhat naive.

Having read through this topic it is clear that the majority of people understand the poor economics of giving out credits at a value of £3 when they are redeemed at £5.

At the end of the day to Labyrinthe 1 credit costs £5 to issue so should they keep encouraging referees to take them opposed to cash? ever increasing the financial outlay of the club or take a bold decision to put credits and cash in line with each other in which case it no longer matters to them how we are paid.

The current CMT have paid long enough have they not for the bad choices of the previous management and fortunately there is clearly enough financial sense now to avoid creating large debts and running the club out of business.

Please lets not have yet another debate on club or business is it not just easier to say it is both?

Is it not fair to say that with the improved service, Armoury kit, IC area's etc that have been delivered that the CMT should be allowed to expect a reasonable financial return for all of their investment?

or should they just look at the amount of whining they receive every time they implement a change and think how ungrateful the general populace are at all of the improvements and would they perhaps have preferred the club continued to be poorly managed and eventually went out of business?

well i seem to remember a few people stepped up with promise of improvement and they have in the most part delivered it so if they drop the pay by a few credits to streamline things in a sensible fashion with logic that noone can really argue why are so many people moaning about it.

I haven't been at the caves for nearly a year now and its nice to see that some things never change.

Come on people refereeing isn't a job its a means of supporting your club for which you get rewarded in a fashion that helps you afford to play yourself. Whilst without refs there is no club, what use are refs if the club goes out of business?

Lynch me or burn me at the stake if you will for saying all of this but sometimes i think if i had invested my own money to keep the club going (not that i have any!) and been met with this amount of criticism i would be pretty unimpressed.

I am personally glad that 1) labyrinthe still exists and 2) its better than it ever was IMHO


so for that i say thanks to the CMT your decisions are not always perfect but the results cannot be argued with.

Joe

(My £30's worth)
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JulianW
post Aug 27 2009, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE(JoeLucas @ Aug 27 2009, 11:46 AM) *
Come on people refereeing isn't a job its a means of supporting your club for which you get rewarded in a fashion that helps you afford to play yourself. Whilst without refs there is no club, what use are refs if the club goes out of business?

Lynch me or burn me at the stake if you will for saying all of this but sometimes i think if i had invested my own money to keep the club going (not that i have any!) and been met with this amount of criticism i would be pretty unimpressed.


Sorry Joe but I am going to have to take issue with this.

Yes the CMT have invested very large sums into the club & I am very grateful for what they have achieved so far.

However, other club members have all, over the years, invested time & effort in many different forms into helping the club survive, grow & thrive. This means they also have a stake in it, however small & are entitled to voice an opinion. This is part of the quid pro quo for getting people to staff at rates that support the club.

Now the CMT are perfectly entitled to think that their customers & staff are whiny ungrateful bastards based on that, and are under no obligation to act based on what is said, but it is wrong to say that people shouldn't have an opinion on changes. I don't think the CMT have ever said that either - it is Joe's post here I am challenging.

My personal view is that cavies are not as whiny as people think, but are deeply conservative (with a small c). I suspect that by and large they would prefer that nothing changed about the club and start from a default position of inherent hostility to any proposed change in any area (whether financial, system-wise, plot, vendors of weapons etc etc) - usually they are won over & come to accept it, but the starting position is CHANGE = BAD, hence the feeling they are always moaning.

Julian


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Nige
post Aug 27 2009, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE(JulianW @ Aug 27 2009, 12:46 PM) *
Sorry Joe but I am going to have to take issue with this.

Yes the CMT have invested very large sums into the club & I am very grateful for what they have achieved so far.

However, other club members have all, over the years, invested time & effort in many different forms into helping the club survive, grow & thrive. This means they also have a stake in it, however small & are entitled to voice an opinion. This is part of the quid pro quo for getting people to staff at rates that support the club.

Now the CMT are perfectly entitled to think that their customers & staff are whiny ungrateful bastards based on that, and are under no obligation to act based on what is said, but it is wrong to say that people shouldn't have an opinion on changes. I don't think the CMT have ever said that either - it is Joe's post here I am challenging.

My personal view is that cavies are not as whiny as people think, but are deeply conservative (with a small c). I suspect that by and large they would prefer that nothing changed about the club and start from a default position of inherent hostility to any proposed change in any area (whether financial, system-wise, plot, vendors of weapons etc etc) - usually they are won over & come to accept it, but the starting position is CHANGE = BAD, hence the feeling they are always moaning.

Julian


Just to back up what Julian has said about being conservative with a small c, the UK as a whole tends to view change as threatening and will resist it. In very general terms the attitiude of 'it's the way we do things here and always have' sums up over 40% of the UK. Assuming that the caves is representative of the UK as a whole it is no surprise the content of the comments posted.

If you are interested in knowing more then feel free to email me, nigelg@thomas.co.uk

Nige (who works in people development)
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Jasper
post Aug 27 2009, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE(Nige @ Aug 27 2009, 02:16 PM) *
Assuming that the caves is representative of the UK as a whole it is no surprise the content of the comments posted.


Waaaaaay off topic but that would be a completely false assumption. The caves isn't even representative of Bromley, let alone the UK.

J


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robmcd
post Aug 27 2009, 02:00 PM
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Couple of points stand out to me here:

In my opinion a referee's job is to create an enjoyable experience for players & monsters. As such I believe that there are a few components that make this up:

- writing & stating
- preparation & props
- referee's ability to run the event on the day e.g., right attitude, manage the day etc
- tailoring style to the party / day

For me what really makes the difference is the referee's ability to make the day enjoyable and as such I do believe that a dungeon should be flexible - a good referee will upstat, downstat, slow the party down by adding stuff, remove encounters if they faff, etc. So while writing is a critical part of this, it seems that the proposed system adds too much weight to this part and not enough to the players experience (and therefore refs ability) on the day. A ref could have a perfect written dungeon - wake up in a bad mood, fail to give a sh*t and mismanage the monsters & players resulting in a poor day for all involved.

From a "people reward" perspective - if you are going to attribute more value to the writing aspect, the criterias for assessment have to be transparent if you they are to be perceived as fair. Rob (or whoever is going to do this) should come up with some guidelines that writers can consider and so understand why they achieve max writing credits or none at all. I know Rob provides this in feedback on the dungeons and some up front communication would be useful I think.

I love the idea for reward based on performance (have built my career out of it in fact) and I believe that only one (albeit important) component is being focused on here. Ideally some sort pay system that rewarded - writing + effort + ref ability, would be great. It is more complicated however.

The fact that the CMT & Club are considering a change to encourage better experiences all round is a good thing!

All this said - and I know I am not representative of the whole with this statement - the change will not affect my reffing behaviour at all. I ref to create a good time for friends & club members and for the fun of it. It is my (and Steves) ambition to create cool experiences for people and fuel this strange hobby that we all love. I will continue to invest way too much time and effort to this end smile.gif

Have fun :-)
Rob



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LucyH
post Aug 27 2009, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE(Jasper @ Aug 27 2009, 02:27 PM) *
Waaaaaay off topic but that would be a completely false assumption. The caves isn't even representative of Bromley, let alone the UK.

J


It would be if Bromley was a place where 90+% of the population were white, male and under 35..


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Jan
post Aug 27 2009, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE
At the end of the day to Labyrinthe 1 credit costs £5 to issue


I stopped reading Joe's post around about this point, since clearly he doesnt have a clue.

Jan


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Jan
post Aug 27 2009, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE(LucyH @ Aug 27 2009, 03:21 PM) *
It would be if Bromley was a place where 90+% of the population were white, male and under 35..


Yay, for the first time ever I am now a candidate to benefit from positive discrimination!

Jan McManus(41) of Orpington


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JoeLucas
post Aug 27 2009, 03:46 PM
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I apologise if my comments were offensive towards anyone on a personal level that was not my intention.

I didn't claim to in any way,shape or form speak for or on behalf of the CMT i am confident that they would never require such from myself.

I merely gave my opinion as a referee and club member to which i agree everyone is entitled to and should be encouraged to express.

Sometimes reading a 'sun newspaper' approach to criticism just tires me somewhat.

expressing thoughts and feelings is something that i hope will always be encouraged although saying 'this idea is [----], i can't justify why but you should just take my word for it' doesn't really express alot.

some people have posted quite reasonable and objective comments i think and i would not want anyone to think i have singled them out specifically with my comments.

I also understand that whilst the majority will always be weary of change, without it we would have seen no improvements to the club in general (that was the point i was trying to make originally although my brain isn't firing on all cylinders at present!).

cheers,

Joe
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JoeLucas
post Aug 27 2009, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE(Jan @ Aug 27 2009, 04:37 PM) *
I stopped reading Joe's post around about this point, since clearly he doesnt have a clue.

Jan


Well even if i don't jan i have an equal entitlement to post as you do and if you don't agree with my post sorry about that but like so many others who have posted its my opinion nothing more.

Sorry if you don't like it.

Have a nice day,

Joe
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LucyH
post Aug 27 2009, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE(JoeLucas @ Aug 27 2009, 04:51 PM) *
QUOTE
At the end of the day to Labyrinthe 1 credit costs £5 to issue


I stopped reading Joe's post around about this point, since clearly he doesnt have a clue.

Jan

Well even if i don't jan i have an equal entitlement to post as you do and if you don't agree with my post sorry about that but like so many others who have posted its my opinion nothing more.

Sorry if you don't like it.

Have a nice day,

Joe


I think what Jan (who used to run the club and probably knows more about its finances than you or I) was trying to point out was that 1 credit does not equal £5, because no tax is paid on credits.

Lucy


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Stuart
post Aug 27 2009, 05:04 PM
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I think it's more completed than just tax (VAT/corporation tax/whatever). It's also the benefit of having a credit token that can only be redeemed on the services that your organisation supplies, as well as minimising marginal costs. It's quite complicated really.

Pre-payment discounting was a great wheeze.

But 1 credit =/= £5 at all.

Stuart
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christianmercer
post Aug 27 2009, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE(JoeLucas @ Aug 27 2009, 04:46 PM) *
I merely gave my opinion as a referee and club member to which i agree everyone is entitled to and should be encouraged to express.

Sometimes reading a 'sun newspaper' approach to criticism just tires me somewhat.

expressing thoughts and feelings is something that i hope will always be encouraged although saying 'this idea is [----], i can't justify why but you should just take my word for it' doesn't really express alot.

cheers,

Joe


Oh dear Joe,
Didn't you know that you could be banned from posting for having an opinion that is contrary to the CMT or certain club members?
Zoe
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Jan
post Aug 27 2009, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE(christianmercer @ Aug 27 2009, 06:08 PM) *
Oh dear Joe,
Didn't you know that you could be banned from posting for having an opinion that is contrary to the CMT or certain club members?
Zoe


Zoe,

If you had read the thread you would know Joe was supporting the CMT, and that club members were not against his opinions, but against some of the assumptions.

Now now dear, have a cup of tea and relax smile.gif

Jan


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