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> Ref Pay, - open thread
BBB
post Aug 20 2009, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE(sonof @ Aug 20 2009, 12:29 PM) *
Having re-read the above, and moving away form Ref pay slightly. The represents a huge cut in pay for Armourers, Senior refs and Desk staff if they take credits.
Unlike refs they don't have any method of making the credits up (Eg writing credits).

It seems quite harsh to slash their pay in this way.

Son of


Perhaps slashing the pay for Armourers / Desk staff in credit terms is to encourage the earning of credits through writing?

There doesn't seem to be any shortage of staff to Desk / Armour - there does often seem to be a shortage of those willing to referee.

Supply and Demand there I guess. If you have lots of people willing to

As it stands I've aslways said that the Cash ~ Credit ratio got horribly out of sync when Simon last raised his prices where £3 cash pay came to represent a credit which was then redeemable as £5.

Personally I tend not to like reffing dungeons written by other people (personal preference) although have done it a couple of times recently in a "we really need someone to cover this slot we have a written dungeon" (Special thanks to Justin Carroll for stirling written dungeons).

Trying to find a referee at the last minute when you can say "We have a written dungeon you can use" is actually far more likely to persuade me to step up late in a week than me needing to think up something interesting and write it up.

BBB


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BBB
post Aug 20 2009, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE(Carlo @ Aug 20 2009, 11:11 AM) *
Personally, I don't like this.

I understand why, but for me it does make me want to ref less. <this isnt me being stroppy, I will still happily ref from a club member perspective and as favours to both players and to the CMT >

I don't think I'm a bad referee, but my written dungeons are awful (judging by my comments and awards, and when I read them I agree, but they generally seem to turn out well). Some dungeons are amazingly written, and poorly reffed. Ultimately, I think the reffing part is more important, you know the customer service bit. Running a 'fun' adventure for your party, being nice to them, at low levels teaching them and at high levels dealing with a high level of stress associated with big stats, numbers facts and figures, and of course, dealing with monsters, having people 'want' to monster for you also helps.

Dont get me wrong, I understand the need for well written, well thought out dungeons. But yeah, sometimes, I leave stats blank if i dont know the party. Often, I change stats as we go along. Even more often, I add encounters in. Sometimes I write an encounter taht is a time based encounter of 'this will last x mins play waves of y'

Anyways, again, I have full faith in the CMT, but thought i'd just mention my personal thoughts on it.

Carlo


I like to aim for having a dungeon that anyone could just pick up and run without need for any furhter input from me. Its not always possible. I don't always manage it. Sometimes there is just stuff that is in my head. A dungeon could look pretty poor on paper but that doesn't mean that its not been carefully thought out with lots of back lot that simply doesn't make it to the written page.

BBB


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MarkCox
post Aug 20 2009, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE(ZoeMercer @ Aug 20 2009, 02:12 PM) *
I think that there should be a consistant mark scheme and guidelines for refs on how they could achieve the best result.

Easy enough to get one or even all of the club members who are in the education sector and have experience of GCSE or higher level examinations to write such a thing.

As an experiment, I have anonymously written a dungeon for Simon in the recent past that had all the bells and whistles. It was fully written with maps, plot overview, alternative section and stats depending on what the party wished to do, armoury list, alignment, resistance levels, monster AC, the whole shabang. It took me ages, around 16 to 20 hours.

However he did not get maximum writing credits nor was there clear indication of how to.

I am able to help with a mark scheme if I am asked or allowed smile.gif

Zoe


I'd imagine it fell foul of the well its what you'd expect from an established referee. See my earlier comments about that.
A system that needs looking at again, now foloowing these future changes.

MCC




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Redders
post Aug 20 2009, 03:52 PM
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Having read through it all I am not a fan. I think I might benifit as I do spend a lot of time writting when I ref and seem to get a good return from the Mr Shepard.

However, I think it will make people less likley to run someone elses dungeon as a last minute help as you only get 6 credits which for a say 9 hour day is very very poor return.

Yes its good to encourage a well written dungeon but as I think Carlo said the bulk of it is in the actual reffing on the day. And I agree it does put more pressure on Mr Shepard to turn round writting credits quickly. I also think that they suddenly become so much more important there will be more complaints that "I did not get enough credits".

It does seem to make senior reffing, being the armouer etc worse for no reason that I can see. I think a telling point is that thus far no one has said great this will make me want to ref more. Though a number of people have said this will make them ref less.

P
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Rob
post Aug 20 2009, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE(DanM @ Aug 20 2009, 12:46 PM) *
Same here

Why should those that love dumping hundreds of pages of prose into their adventures, much of it irrelevant to anyone get the benefit of it being a "better standard" of dungeon

Its the monsters IMO that make the dungeon, not the writing

I will be taking cash for reffing from now on, and I will consider reffing, even less than I do now.

As for the Armourers etc, why are they being paid less?


Dan

I often tell people they write too much and when they keep doing it they may not get punished but they certainly dont get rewarded

Monsters dont read pages of "[----]"

Clear, concise, well written dungeons win the day

Rob


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Rob
post Aug 20 2009, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE(ZoeMercer @ Aug 20 2009, 02:12 PM) *
I think that there should be a consistant mark scheme and guidelines for refs on how they could achieve the best result.

Easy enough to get one or even all of the club members who are in the education sector and have experience of GCSE or higher level examinations to write such a thing.

As an experiment, I have anonymously written a dungeon for Simon in the recent past that had all the bells and whistles. It was fully written with maps, plot overview, alternative section and stats depending on what the party wished to do, armoury list, alignment, resistance levels, monster AC, the whole shabang. It took me ages, around 16 to 20 hours.

However he did not get maximum writing credits nor was there clear indication of how to.

I am able to help with a mark scheme if I am asked or allowed smile.gif

Zoe


Show me the dungeon Zoe and I would be happy to comment - I cant however call it to mind.

I dont tend to in fact read dungeons with no names on as noone can be given credit for them - instead I return them to the desk to await a name OR I ring Rachel (or now Jo) and ask who reffed a dungeon of that level in the last couple of weeks and that hopefully gives me the reffs name.

I have continously and consistently written on dungeons that I would happily send a copy of what I consider a "near perfect" dungeon on peoples dungeons if they would like it emailed to them. I have never had anyone take me up on the offer.

Rob


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Rob
post Aug 20 2009, 09:29 PM
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I am in two minds regarding these changes

I am discounting non reffing staff issues as they dont involve me

As a reff I have never in 16+ years taken cash! So I am in for a pay drop - I do see however that for people that get paid cash this is an excellent chance to have your hard dungeon writing work recognised.

With Myths etc I have fallen a little behind with dungeon reading however this will be up to date by the end of next week.

I am pretty good at returning all dungeons given to me in physical form back within 1 - 2 weeks. I get plenty of time sitting at work to read dungeons. Dungeons emailed to me get done when I can be motivated basically. I get less and less via email now adays so this means they are also done pretty fast.

I recognise that when the new changes come in people will need the credits from writing much sooner - as such all dungeons given in by hand WITH A DATE AND NAME ON will be returned within 2 weeks. In a similar way to MCC and his points requests this is subject to delays a couple of times a year due to holidays etc. If I ever feel I cant keep up I will talk to the CMT about alternative arrangements however having talked to Phil this week before the announcement we were both happy for me to continue reading the adventures.

I always have been and will continue to be more than happy to discuss credit awards with people if they feel mistreated and am happy to discuss how they can get more. I try and add both possitive and negative comments as well as constructive advice on everything I read.

I recognise MCCs comments about the curve system where it is easier for newer reffs to get more credits to start with as they react to feed back. With the changes giving a range of 0-8 and with a bigger % of the pay coming from writing that will be taken in to account. It gives me much more room to play with. For example someone new to reffing who I gave 3 out of 4 for this week may get 5 out of 8 for their first attempt. An experienced reff who I gave 3 out of 4 for may get 7 out of 8.

I will continue to give detailed feed back to those who need / want it - As I have always said to experienced reffs or those that think they know better - you can choose to ignore what I write.

I am still happy to send people copies of dungeons of a variety of levels which I believe are worth full credits to reffs if they believe it will help them.

I am playing with the idea of over the next few weeks until the new system comes in of putting what reward you would have recieved under the new system on the dungeon for your / mine / CMT interests sake

Regards

Rob
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sonof
post Aug 21 2009, 09:51 AM
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I know that it has been said that individual extended events will be looked at individually, however a couple of poitns/questions.

I assume that overlands, being 3 sections, will be out of 12 writing credits?

If this is the case then I ask how will a myths (6 day) work out. It is approximately 4 sections a day (overland + a night section), and 6 days. So 4 credits a section (max), means 16 a day, if its line with other dungeons. So that means a maximum of 96 credits for writing for the week.


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Gordon
post Aug 21 2009, 09:56 AM
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That would certainly feel like a reward for the time and effort that is involved with crafting such an event.


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Cast of 2015: Amorphus, Karador, Radiant, Strale & Zaton
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Brucifer
post Aug 25 2009, 11:28 AM
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I have read the new system and i dont like it. SOrry to those who bashed it out and tried to come up with something that works for Ref/Writers AND helps the 'club' not pay out loads of cash.

I havent reffed an adult dungeon in a while (except for the Lost) and reffing the YPs means we can continue to come and play at the caves. It seems that we go through phases (by we i mean caroline and I) f reffing for a while and then playing. During the reffing phase i get fed up with it (as you do) and it takes a fair amount of dedication to write decent-ish dungeon after decent-ish dungeon (i say that as i don't like saying my own duingeons are good or not...somewhere in the middle) and maintain new, fresh ideas. We get reasonable credit awards for our dungeons, bu tit is the basic of 10 credits which we take 9 out 0f 10 times that enables us to go to the playing phase of cavieness. Apparently that can no longer be relied upon.

Overall it is a bad thing IMHO. I would counsel refs to ref Yps more as the pay tends to be better for Ref/Arefs, and if we (the club) do have to wait for 2 weeks for Rob to mark a dungeon then we (Caroline and I) wont be coming to the caves as much as we do as we cant plan our caving around 'we have about X credits'. We just cant afford it. I know that's no-ones problem but ours but i thought it was worth mentioning.

B


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Carlo
post Aug 25 2009, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE(Brucifer @ Aug 25 2009, 12:28 PM) *
I have read the new system and i dont like it. SOrry to those who bashed it out and tried to come up with something that works for Ref/Writers AND helps the 'club' not pay out loads of cash.

I havent reffed an adult dungeon in a while (except for the Lost) and reffing the YPs means we can continue to come and play at the caves. It seems that we go through phases (by we i mean caroline and I) f reffing for a while and then playing. During the reffing phase i get fed up with it (as you do) and it takes a fair amount of dedication to write decent-ish dungeon after decent-ish dungeon (i say that as i don't like saying my own duingeons are good or not...somewhere in the middle) and maintain new, fresh ideas. We get reasonable credit awards for our dungeons, bu tit is the basic of 10 credits which we take 9 out 0f 10 times that enables us to go to the playing phase of cavieness. Apparently that can no longer be relied upon.

Overall it is a bad thing IMHO. I would counsel refs to ref Yps more as the pay tends to be better for Ref/Arefs, and if we (the club) do have to wait for 2 weeks for Rob to mark a dungeon then we (Caroline and I) wont be coming to the caves as much as we do as we cant plan our caving around 'we have about X credits'. We just cant afford it. I know that's no-ones problem but ours but i thought it was worth mentioning.

B


I think, there should be a couple of dungeon readers.

Or, maybe the senior refs should all read dungeons aswell? They can get equally divided out, and get a variety of opinions from different people on their dungeons.

I am quite convinced there is no right or wrong way to write a dungeon. Just, alternative ways of doingthings, improvements etc.

I get the same comments on my dungeons, and I dont agree with all of them. Yes, some are good ones dont get me wrong, Rob does a godo job but I think having a few different peopel reading would also speed up the process (again, Kudos to Rob, he does do them very quick, but people tend not to be too worried abotu 1 - 3 credits, now we're talking about enough credits that would cover a days pay being reliant on one person)

Anyways, what do people think about that? Ie - more than one person reading dungeons, limiting it to 3? having senior refs do it?

Carlo
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Brucifer
post Aug 25 2009, 11:33 AM
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And...(havent finished yet)

What's all this about being booked a month in advance? First we had to do the 'ref team jig' by tuesday morning (or somehting) now book a month in advance for a bonus peanut? Should we be saying 'all events, teams, monsters whatever are now to be booked the year previous'? It smells of Less Tolerable ™ events to me...

Come on guys (CMT). Please think about this again.

B

edit: agreeing with Carlo...Rob does do a good job in turnaround considering his job. And 2 weeks isnt that bad. It just means we can't plan our dungeons so easily and thus would miss out on a place when there is no real need to. Senior refs and other staff could well be helping out with this.


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Brucifer Morningstar lvl 40 layabout

Aerbael Winterhand - Icedancer of the Great Stag
Felix Arneherne - Accident prone Noble of Halgar
Shoju - the Black Dragon
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Tengu Mitsu - Sohei of the Temple of Thunder, Fortune of persistence
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Gordon
post Aug 25 2009, 12:19 PM
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The way I see it is you don't have to book a month in advance to ref but if you do you get 2 additional credits.

That rewards you for being organised, and has plain benefits for the club in knowing it has referees for future weeks and should encourage people to book earlier as they won't be waiting to see if a ref appears before they do. Less time for Jo chasing prospective refs equates to more time doing other needed work for us, also should mean less cancelled events and more chances to play, monster etc.

As for dungeon reading you get continuity with one person reading them and I think that is to be encouraged.




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Gordon Court
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Known to play: Amorphus, Mithaniel, Raven & Radiant
Cast of 2009: Amorphus, Ash, Cyric, Godstone, Kessel, Prowl, Mithaniel, Radiant, Raven, Strale, Void & Vorell
Cast of 2010: Amorphus, Aqueous, Blaen, Godstone, Hex, Kessel, Mithaniel, Prowl, Radiant, Shadowmoss, Vanderlaine & Void
Cast of 2011: Cyric, Hex & Prowl
Cast of 2012: Kessel
Cast of 2013: Amorphus, Golgari, Kessel, Marimar, Radiant, Strale & "Terry"
Cast of 2014: Amorphus, Hex, Godstone, Golgari, Ink-Eyes, Radiant & Strale
Cast of 2015: Amorphus, Karador, Radiant, Strale & Zaton
Cast of 2016: Zaton
Cast of 2017: Amorphus, Godstone, Golgari, Hex, Karador, Prowl, Radiant, Variel & Zaton.
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Jasper
post Aug 25 2009, 12:46 PM
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I agree with Carlo. Without denegrating the job Rob is doing, I've never really understood why there should be a single dungeon tsar. Opinions on what makes a good dungeon vary so much, IMHO, it makes more sense to have a variety of those opinons doing the vetting.

J

Edit; plus, and more to the point, it would speed up the turn around. Although I think its the weighting of the award that is worrying people. Personally, as I *rarely* ref these days, I don't really mind.


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isbiraven
post Aug 26 2009, 11:57 AM
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I hate this... I have never seen myself as an english lit student and as such I have never enjoyed handing in anything I write and that includes dungeons, I always have a writen dungeon and as somebody else has stated, while running it, it gets changed, having to go with the flow of the party ect so that a brill day is had by all...

this just feels as tho I am being forced to hand stuff in that makes me personnally feel like rubbish, I dont take crit very well regarding my writing (never have) and tbh just makes my feel stupid and gives a "why do I bother" attitude when reading the feed back.

I just dont understand how somebody can talk about a stat or a rite or say this is stupid when they werent on the adventure and so cant see how it actually worked.

and now a very large part of the "thank you" (payment) I will be getting for running fun enjoyable days for fellow club members and friends alike is going to be hinged on wether ot not I can translate what happens on the day into a writtern form before the event???????

sry about the ramble, I just really dislike this... can see what it has been done for but I am very worried that it will push alot of the more common ref's (me being one of them) away from wanting to run adventures.

T.
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LucyH
post Aug 26 2009, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE(isbiraven @ Aug 26 2009, 12:57 PM) *
this just feels as tho I am being forced to hand stuff in that makes me personnally feel like rubbish, I dont take crit very well regarding my writing (never have) and tbh just makes my feel stupid and gives a "why do I bother" attitude when reading the feed back.

I just dont understand how somebody can talk about a stat or a rite or say this is stupid when they werent on the adventure and so cant see how it actually worked.


True, you can't, as a reader, see how a specific encounter worked on dungeon.

However, if a ref repeatedly over-stats his dungeons (e.g. every encounter on a max 250 is doing quin), or makes them too short, or clearly doesn't understand the way the system works (Fish based damage) ... then short of having someone booked onto the dungeon providing a report back to the desk, how else are the CMT going to check the quality of what they are selling?

Hmm. Maybe we should have a post-dungeon feedback form that all players are asked to complete. Like the ones training courses insist on giving out to find out if the guy who spent 35 minutes describing a new database 'lived the firm's Inclusiveness and Equality Policy' whilst giving his powerpoint presentation.

Lucy


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EdBush
post Aug 26 2009, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE(LucyH @ Aug 26 2009, 01:49 PM) *
Hmm. Maybe we should have a post-dungeon feedback form that all players are asked to complete. Like the ones training courses insist on giving out to find out if the guy who spent 35 minutes describing a new database 'lived the firm's Inclusiveness and Equality Policy' whilst giving his powerpoint presentation.

Lucy

I usually like to remind people to fill out feedback forms for actual feedback when things are good rather then just b1tching sometimes....

Dunno if they do though...

My opinion on other matters are that dungeons are pretty much crucial.
I'm known to cut and paste something extra in purely to hit the magic number of encounters, knowing full well that the roleplay (or trap..) encounter 2 previous will actually mean I'm running late and have to cut it stuff...

I think higher pay for dungeons definitely reflects the effort put in - Even with running around and setting it's almost certain I physically spend the same or more time writing then actually reffing.

In fact, with a really good a-ref (and I've had a few..) the actual turn up and execute bit is FAR FAR more simple then the writing - lots of milling around with the party, watching for cheating, giving a few descriptions and answering discerns & comms... Lovely.

Presuming it's done right in the planning.

Of course, I reserve the right to b1tch like everyone else if it actually hits me in the wallet... But for that we'll have to wait and see...
's gonna be weird taking cash though..

Ed
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JulianW
post Aug 26 2009, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE(EdBush @ Aug 26 2009, 02:21 PM) *
In fact, with a really good a-ref (and I've had a few..) the actual turn up and execute bit is FAR FAR more simple then the writing - lots of milling around with the party, watching for cheating, giving a few descriptions and answering discerns & comms... Lovely.

Presuming it's done right in the planning.


I agree with Ed here.

When I have written the dungeon right (and the a-ref is sensible), then it does pretty much run itself.
Certainly also when things haven't gone to plan I have often found this is down to my dungeon having ambiguous descriptions, typos or lack of detail.

Julian


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DanM
post Aug 26 2009, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE(EdBush @ Aug 26 2009, 02:21 PM) *
In fact, with a really good a-ref (and I've had a few..) the actual turn up and execute bit is FAR FAR more simple then the writing - lots of milling around with the party, watching for cheating, giving a few descriptions and answering discerns & comms... Lovely.


More pay for proper a-refs and not "head monsters"?


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Jan
post Aug 26 2009, 03:55 PM
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Out of curiosity, with the writting pay for a caves dungeon being 'up to 8', what should be considered the norm of a solid regular adventure? Whats the average as it were, and whats the 'pass mark', with those being two different things. Should i be traumatised by guilt if i fail to earn all eight, or if i get six should i have a warm fuzzy glow knowing that what people generally get without being the adventure of 2009.

I trust Robs work on dungeon reading implicitly and have always had good feedback, just curious how things will change with the new system, and I am sure he has ball parks in his mind already biggrin.gif


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