IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

5 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Ref Pay, - open thread
MarkCox
post Aug 19 2009, 05:24 PM
Post #1


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,137
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 69



QUOTE
Following on from a number of threads on the forums, we have been discussing the pay for refereeing and writing an event and for other staffing positions at Labyrinthe. A number of points have been raised on the forums, and we hope that the changes outlined below will address most of the points raised.

For running an event as a referee, the pay for the day will be £30 for a caves double length and £50 for a caves or overland triple length. There will be no increased credit option. If a referee wishes to be paid in credits, they will receive 1 credit per £5 of pay. Ref points and monster points will remain unchanged. Extended length/special events will be calculated on an individual basis and published in advance of the event.

Writing an event will receive up to 8 credits for a caves double length and up to 12 credits for a caves or overland triple length. Extended length/special events will be calculated on an individual basis and published in advance of the event.

Assuming a reasonably well written dungeon, for referees who regularly take cash as payment, this change represents an increase in overall pay and for referees who regularly take credits this change will represent the same overall pay. Should a referee book early for an open dungeon, using the 'early booking' bonus outlined below, then an overall increase in pay is seen.

On the rare occasion that a written dungeon is re-used, the writer will receive 30 monster points for a caves double length and 50 monster points for a caves/overland triple length for each time the event is used after the first time.

We have found that ref teams, more often than not, do not achieve their original primary aim. As such, the current system and bonus pay of ref teams will no longer be used. Referee teams do achieve early booking for monsters for an event, and this is a desirable result.

As such, there will now be an early booking bonus to the credit award for monsters and A-refs of 1 credit. In order to qualify for this bonus, the booking must be made by close of business the Sunday preceding the event. The bonus monster points for booking in advance will remain unchanged.

Similarly, for referee’s of open events, in addition to the normal referee pay, there will be an early booking bonus of 2 credits. In order to qualify for this bonus the booking must be made at least 1 calendar month in advance. The bonus monster points for booking in advance will remain unchanged.

People who no-show or repeatedly book off for reffing, a-reffing or monstering may, at the CMT’s discretion, loose early booking benefits. Please only book if you intend to fulfil the booking.

Senior refs are currently paid as referee’s, and this will remain the case – using the above guidelines. As such, Senior referees will be paid £30 for the day, without an increased credit option. If a Senior Referee wishes to be paid in credits, they will receive 1 credit per £5 of pay. Ref points and monster points will remain unchanged.

Desk Staff, Armourers and other incidental staff pay will remain unchanged, excepting that there will no longer be an increased credit option. If the staff member wishes to be paid in credits, they will receive 1 credit per £5 of pay.

These changes will come into effect at the end of September – thus the weekend of 2nd & 3rd October will be processed using these new guidelines. Any monsters wishing to receive the pre-booked credit bonus for that weekend must be booked by close of business on Sunday 27th September.

Andy and Phil.


--------------------
Skywest and Crooked
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RichardCraig
post Aug 19 2009, 05:28 PM
Post #2


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,887
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 112



So what about a late reffing bonus, you step up to stop a dungeon crumbling?

Isnt that worth 2 credits?

Rich
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RichardCraig
post Aug 19 2009, 05:31 PM
Post #3


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,887
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 112



oh and doesnt this mean that you can get 14? credits for reffing?

But 8 of them are now in the hands of Mr sheppard?

So before you could get 13?

Doesnt seem much of an increase, especially if you have to wait a month or so to get the remainder which isnt gaurenteed

Rich
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MarkCox
post Aug 19 2009, 05:43 PM
Post #4


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,137
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 69



Its a fair enough change - though could prove somewhat problematic on the following:

Writing credits are typically awarded out on a curve - meaning that up and coming refs tend to find it easier to get awarded writing credits - especially where improvements have been made / notes noted etc
This would now appear to be unfair.

There will be a delay in being awarded a much larger part of your pay - because the dungeon needs to be read and admin'd. RS has a very full time job, and it can easily be a good few weeks [2-3-4 etc] before adventures are turned around.

Agreeing to ref at short notice, using an existing adventure [usually rewritten in some way], becomes a lot less worth it, people alot less willing to help out if rang up on a Tuesday.

How do we as writers know if our adventures are reused?

I can't do the math [its too hot] - but

6 credits for reffing + [a few weeks later] 5/6 credits for an average adventure = 11/12 credits

at the moment 10 credits + [a few weeks later] 3/4 credits for an average adventure = 13/14 credits

not a huge change but it could certainly be £10's worth, not sure how it works out an increase but I suppose it all comes down to how generous the dungeon reader is. Which is often highly dependant if the moderator has played the adventure, or indeed likes your reffing style or even your writting style.

I can only see this really as people taking cash more often, which takes money out of the club - or am i missing something?

Would it be possible to have the above infomation in bullet points - its all a bit wordy :-] ?



Mark Cox




--------------------
Skywest and Crooked
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gordon
post Aug 19 2009, 06:55 PM
Post #5


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,423
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 52



I applaud the move towards further encouraging:
1. Well written and planned dungeons
2. Refs booking in advance

The latter should see less dungeons cancelled due to lack of ref or players as they don't commit because they aren't sure who will ref or bookign off last minute because they don't enjoy the dungeosn of those that have booked on.

If you are organised and are able to plan your caving life more than 4 weeks ahead then the chance for an additional 2 credits can't be ignored. I ordinarily book to ref a good month in advance so I'm looking forward to picking up extra credits for it.

The change of the cash to credits ratio for reffing will mean that those referees that don't normally take cash will start to take it now. I referee for credits knowing that for every day I ref I can play twice and with writing credits (normally 3 or 4) almost three times for just the cash minimum.

Now I'll be taking cash, better to have £30 in my pocket that I can spend how I like rather than £30 in someone elses which I can only spend in a set way. This surely will see more money taken from the club. It will also see me playing less I imagine because I can't devote the time to ref more often on top of my other commitments and just how many hours I spend writing for 1 dungeon.

Yes I know in real terms I as a referee who takes credits shouldn't overly see any overall difference in the maximum credit award available to me however the personal perception and potential time scales on the secondary award leads me to say "cash" rather than credits.

The key thing for referees is going to be how the credits for writing are awarded, what the breakdown is if there is one and what the turn around of such "payment" is.

Is Rob still going to be doing the dungeon reading? It certainly puts an even greater deal of responsibility and emphasis on him if he is.

I do welcome the consideration that has been given to the aim of making the events we partake in as players and monsters better. Better value for money, more enjoyable to crew, more exciting and rewardign to play and coupled with other initiatives pointign towards the same goal. When I play a dungeon I want to know that as much effort, consideration and time has been put into it as I think is required as a minimum when I write. I don't want to play recycled dungeons or plots, or back of a fag packed or travel card adventures. When I crew I want to know the backgroud of the plot, the dungeon and to be able to understand how my part fits into things to bring the thign to life and give the players a good time. I don't want a box of stats with "you're orcs" or worse still "Encounter 12" and nothing written there.

I hope this will encorage referees to strive to make the events the best they can be, after all we want that when we play so we shouldn't expect to give less when we referee.

I'm not complaining or winging at the changes but I'd like to have a full understanding of the logisitcs and reality of it before I cement a stance either way.


--------------------
Gordon Court
"The man with the barbwire soul."
Known to play: Amorphus, Mithaniel, Raven & Radiant
Cast of 2009: Amorphus, Ash, Cyric, Godstone, Kessel, Prowl, Mithaniel, Radiant, Raven, Strale, Void & Vorell
Cast of 2010: Amorphus, Aqueous, Blaen, Godstone, Hex, Kessel, Mithaniel, Prowl, Radiant, Shadowmoss, Vanderlaine & Void
Cast of 2011: Cyric, Hex & Prowl
Cast of 2012: Kessel
Cast of 2013: Amorphus, Golgari, Kessel, Marimar, Radiant, Strale & "Terry"
Cast of 2014: Amorphus, Hex, Godstone, Golgari, Ink-Eyes, Radiant & Strale
Cast of 2015: Amorphus, Karador, Radiant, Strale & Zaton
Cast of 2016: Zaton
Cast of 2017: Amorphus, Godstone, Golgari, Hex, Karador, Prowl, Radiant, Variel & Zaton.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BBB
post Aug 19 2009, 07:00 PM
Post #6


Avatar
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,707
Joined: 10-November 07
Member No.: 25



To answer Gordon's point about refs more likely to opt for cash rather than credits as its all £5 it makes perfect sense from the view point of the club

£5 credit = £5 to the club

Paying out less in credits is paying out less. This removes the discrepancy between cash and credits that crept into the system when Simon last reviewed the prices he charged and what he paid refs.

Its simple economics - a credit = £5 to the club.

BBB


--------------------
Grey's Law: Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice...

PS, Yes, I know my PM Box is full. Email me instead... (Which you can do through the forums email)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sonof
post Aug 19 2009, 08:24 PM
Post #7


GSM
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,688
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Lives in the caves... apparently
Member No.: 54



Broadly I think its a bad ratio change, and I'm someone that all but exclusively takes cash from reffing. The change is in response to a minimal outcry from a few over writing dungeons that are reffed by others. Yes I've done it, I wrote a low a while ago because I had the time so that Eastonator would have something to ref. Do I think the time was worth 3 credits? No, but I did it to help out because I had the time and could.

This change will now result in people taking cash more and more often. It will see people harrassing the desk (and thus via them Rob) for writing credits within 2 weeks of the dungeon. The end result of this will be people saying "But I'm due writing credits from dungeon XXX and want to use them to play with".

I also ask how will this change in ref pay work with the increase in writing credits that are received for higher (no max for example?) dungeons? Will it be a simple case of 2 more, or is it a different ratio? Or has this been forgotten completely.

Finally I ask why is it that only open dungeons get the benefit of being booked in advance? Is this an indication that closed dungeons are worth less reffing wise? I'm sorry but I don't think its fair to pay people differently for reffing open and closed dungeons, especially when there is a limited list of those people that can ref higher level dungeons and closed dungeons tend to fall into the higher end of the system.

Lee
(Who is basicsally going to benefit if the pay changes remain as they are)


--------------------
Please send points apps to: pointsapp@labyrinthe.co.uk

And send system questions etc. to: Lee@labyrinthe.co.uk
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jan
post Aug 19 2009, 09:08 PM
Post #8


Bridgewarden
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,789
Joined: 13-December 07
Member No.: 238



Why would anyone take credits instead of cash?

If a ref took a days reffing in credits, and then come to play, a ref have to fork out the cash only portion and not be able to use the rest till next time.
If a ref took cash then they can pay for their next adventure with the proceeds of that day.
So by taking credits refs will want to ref less often, because the proceeds of reffing take longer to use up.

Unless the cash only portion of adventures is being removed as a constraint?

Also doesn't paying refs cash, and refs paying in cash increase the VAT burden on the club, and unless i am much mistaken, peole paying in credits don't pay VAT, people paying in cash do? Over to the specialist tax lawyers on that though - biggrin.gif


--------------------
Jan McManus
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
aaaarrrggh
post Aug 20 2009, 12:24 AM
Post #9


Heldsman
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 821
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 91



I like it, but then I always take cash and rarely sort out a ref team so this seems a fairly substantial increase in what I'll get paid for writing and running something.

Nice,

Henry


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BBB
post Aug 20 2009, 09:31 AM
Post #10


Avatar
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,707
Joined: 10-November 07
Member No.: 25



QUOTE(Jan @ Aug 19 2009, 10:08 PM) *
Why would anyone take credits instead of cash?


I'm guessing that that might in itself be part of a factor behind this change.

It looks to me like the idea is to reward refs who consistently put in the "behind the scenes" effort involved in reffing and to encourage more careful thought as to planning ahead for reffing and well written dungeons.

My personal kneejerk reactin has been "What another change, why? if it ain't borke... Et cetera". HOwever it appears to be another attempt by the CMT to improve things for all and to raise standards which has got to be a good thing.

Anything that encourages people to plan ahead has got to be a good thing. We can't afford to continue to hvae a system of "last minute reffing / last minute booking" et cetera so anything that squeezes that out will benefit everyone.

It has been pointed out time and time again that we suffer from a somewhat circular cancellation problem of refs not booking to ref if they think the dungeon will be cancelled and players not booking on til they know who the referee is.

Since we cannot guarantee that a specific referee will be to the majoirty of players liking we can at least maek some sort of guarantee that any effort undertaken by the referee will be rewarded. Now that writing a dungeno is worth a whole heap more then putting in the effort for a dungeon that can still be handed in and paid for and THEN possibly used later by someone else for additional credits means that you've not wasted your evenings as a ref in writing such and should hopefully assauge refs fears of "wasting time" on a dungeon that doesn't get run.

It also means the CMT can far more easily build up a stock of dungeons that can be re-used in emergency.

BBB


--------------------
Grey's Law: Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice...

PS, Yes, I know my PM Box is full. Email me instead... (Which you can do through the forums email)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LucyH
post Aug 20 2009, 09:49 AM
Post #11


Hag
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,771
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Lower Basildon, Berkshire
Member No.: 42



QUOTE(sonof @ Aug 19 2009, 09:24 PM) *
Finally I ask why is it that only open dungeons get the benefit of being booked in advance? Is this an indication that closed dungeons are worth less reffing wise? I'm sorry but I don't think its fair to pay people differently for reffing open and closed dungeons, especially when there is a limited list of those people that can ref higher level dungeons and closed dungeons tend to fall into the higher end of the system.


Because closed dungeon refs are asked to ref by the party and know who/what they are running for, whereas open dungeon refs have to write something where they don't know what the mix party is, that is more accessible to a wide range of playing experience/capability, and where they don't automatically have a good relationship with the players meaning that there is more potential for stress if things go wrong.

I too can't see why the shift away from reffing credits to writing credits either. If anything, I think it might discourage people from refereeing, if they can get paid as much, potentially more, for sitting at home with a bottle of wine doing a copy & paste job from old dungeons as they would for a day down the pit. You too can do the less stressful bit at home and get someone else to deal with the players (and take the rap if the dungeon doesn't play out very well).

Lucy



--------------------
"A horrific example of humanity"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Carlo
post Aug 20 2009, 10:11 AM
Post #12


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,330
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Rochester
Member No.: 119



QUOTE(LucyH @ Aug 20 2009, 10:49 AM) *
Because closed dungeon refs are asked to ref by the party and know who/what they are running for, whereas open dungeon refs have to write something where they don't know what the mix party is, that is more accessible to a wide range of playing experience/capability, and where they don't automatically have a good relationship with the players meaning that there is more potential for stress if things go wrong.

I too can't see why the shift away from reffing credits to writing credits either. If anything, I think it might discourage people from refereeing, if they can get paid as much, potentially more, for sitting at home with a bottle of wine doing a copy & paste job from old dungeons as they would for a day down the pit. You too can do the less stressful bit at home and get someone else to deal with the players (and take the rap if the dungeon doesn't play out very well).

Lucy


Personally, I don't like this.

I understand why, but for me it does make me want to ref less. <this isnt me being stroppy, I will still happily ref from a club member perspective and as favours to both players and to the CMT >

I don't think I'm a bad referee, but my written dungeons are awful (judging by my comments and awards, and when I read them I agree, but they generally seem to turn out well). Some dungeons are amazingly written, and poorly reffed. Ultimately, I think the reffing part is more important, you know the customer service bit. Running a 'fun' adventure for your party, being nice to them, at low levels teaching them and at high levels dealing with a high level of stress associated with big stats, numbers facts and figures, and of course, dealing with monsters, having people 'want' to monster for you also helps.

Dont get me wrong, I understand the need for well written, well thought out dungeons. But yeah, sometimes, I leave stats blank if i dont know the party. Often, I change stats as we go along. Even more often, I add encounters in. Sometimes I write an encounter taht is a time based encounter of 'this will last x mins play waves of y'

Anyways, again, I have full faith in the CMT, but thought i'd just mention my personal thoughts on it.

Carlo



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pants
post Aug 20 2009, 10:45 AM
Post #13


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,965
Joined: 25-November 07
Member No.: 148



I have an agreement with Lee that why booking to referee a closed event does not gather the early booking reward.

If we look it often the referee has been badgered by the players to run the event. In essence there is little chasing or admin to. The players and ref pretty much organise everything including often the monsters.



--------------------
- Pants

"Stop quoting laws to us, we carry swords!" Pompey the Great 82BC

VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI

Corrupting the youth since 1995!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DavidFisher
post Aug 20 2009, 11:11 AM
Post #14


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,529
Joined: 28-March 08
From: Ottershaw
Member No.: 446



Okay, maybe I am being dumb (most likely) but as a ref if I choose "cash" do I get paid:

£30 for a caves adventure plus writing credits
or
£30

Cheers

David

PS I think the point about credits is that you are locked into using them at Labby whereas cash can be spent elsewhere. Saying 1 credit = £5 pounds regardless only makes sense if the £5 can only be spent at the club. With tax in general, I assume the CMT calculate credits as outgoing expenses to ensure the minimum tax burden.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
abyatt
post Aug 20 2009, 11:17 AM
Post #15


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,819
Joined: 14-September 07
From: Down T' Pit
Member No.: 3



QUOTE(DavidFisher @ Aug 20 2009, 12:11 PM) *
Okay, maybe I am being dumb (most likely) but as a ref if I choose "cash" do I get paid:

£30 for a caves adventure plus writing credits
or
£30

Cheers

David

PS I think the point about credits is that you are locked into using them at Labby whereas cash can be spent elsewhere. Saying 1 credit = £5 pounds regardless only makes sense if the £5 can only be spent at the club. With tax in general, I assume the CMT calculate credits as outgoing expenses to ensure the minimum tax burden.


£30 for a caves adventure plus writing credits (between 0 and 8)

andy


--------------------
Damn I love muggles
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sonof
post Aug 20 2009, 11:29 AM
Post #16


GSM
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,688
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Lives in the caves... apparently
Member No.: 54



Having re-read the above, and moving away form Ref pay slightly. The represents a huge cut in pay for Armourers, Senior refs and Desk staff if they take credits.
Unlike refs they don't have any method of making the credits up (Eg writing credits).

It seems quite harsh to slash their pay in this way.

Son of



--------------------
Please send points apps to: pointsapp@labyrinthe.co.uk

And send system questions etc. to: Lee@labyrinthe.co.uk
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bruno
post Aug 20 2009, 11:32 AM
Post #17


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,071
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 41



That was my first thought Lee, so I assume that either they are having no trouble whatsoever finding people for those roles, they are intending to get rid of those roles, or everyone doing those roles takes cash generally anyway smile.gif otherwise it would seem like a bad idea!


--------------------
--
Bruno
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DanM
post Aug 20 2009, 11:46 AM
Post #18


Post Police
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 11,549
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Dartford
Member No.: 38



QUOTE(Carlo @ Aug 20 2009, 11:11 AM) *
I don't think I'm a bad referee, but my written dungeons are awful (judging by my comments and awards, and when I read them I agree, but they generally seem to turn out well). Some dungeons are amazingly written, and poorly reffed. Ultimately, I think the reffing part is more important, you know the customer service bit. Running a 'fun' adventure for your party, being nice to them, at low levels teaching them and at high levels dealing with a high level of stress associated with big stats, numbers facts and figures, and of course, dealing with monsters, having people 'want' to monster for you also helps.


Same here

Why should those that love dumping hundreds of pages of prose into their adventures, much of it irrelevant to anyone get the benefit of it being a "better standard" of dungeon

Its the monsters IMO that make the dungeon, not the writing

I will be taking cash for reffing from now on, and I will consider reffing, even less than I do now.

As for the Armourers etc, why are they being paid less?


--------------------
QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
A one-man revolution against the world.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pants
post Aug 20 2009, 11:52 AM
Post #19


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,965
Joined: 25-November 07
Member No.: 148



To be fair I believe that the way Rob marks dungeons has been commented on else where and it not just about dumping prose into the event.

Props, rituals etc all get extra marks. Which is as they should.


--------------------
- Pants

"Stop quoting laws to us, we carry swords!" Pompey the Great 82BC

VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI

Corrupting the youth since 1995!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ZoeMercer
post Aug 20 2009, 01:12 PM
Post #20


Militiaman
****

Group: Members
Posts: 707
Joined: 23-November 07
From: London
Member No.: 56



I think that there should be a consistant mark scheme and guidelines for refs on how they could achieve the best result.

Easy enough to get one or even all of the club members who are in the education sector and have experience of GCSE or higher level examinations to write such a thing.

As an experiment, I have anonymously written a dungeon for Simon in the recent past that had all the bells and whistles. It was fully written with maps, plot overview, alternative section and stats depending on what the party wished to do, armoury list, alignment, resistance levels, monster AC, the whole shabang. It took me ages, around 16 to 20 hours.

However he did not get maximum writing credits nor was there clear indication of how to.

I am able to help with a mark scheme if I am asked or allowed smile.gif

Zoe

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st November 2017 - 07:10 PM
Original Darkness Skin Created by Danellis
Converted by Mdgshorty of New Horizon Skins