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> Undead, ...And Tainting The Soul
Flanners
post Jan 13 2011, 11:49 AM
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Brothers And Sisters,

I Would Just Like To Talk Shortly About This. It Has Been My Observation Over The Last Couple Of Weeks That People Have Started To Accept These Kind Of Acts Lightly.

When Binding An Undead Spirit To A Corpse's Spirit, It Taints It Such That That Spirit Is In Eternal Torment Worse Than The Pain Of Death Through Torture (Until Purified.) Anyone Who Has Had This Done to Them Will Understand! Within Our Order and Others, There Are Those Who Have Sold Their Soul In Order To Host Such Spirits Inside Them. If That Is One's Choice, Then That Is Their Choice To Make...Who am I To Act Against Free Will. Not That I Endorse Such, But The Creator Of All Things Gave Us Choice And Created The Unliving Realms For His Own Divine Reason.

However, When Casting A Miracle To Create An Undead, It Is Still An Evil Act And Taints The Soul, No Matter Who One Is Recalling From The Afterlife/Netherworld (Be It A Hero Of The Past Or A Spirit Of Friend You Miss) And No Matter Which Faith One Derives Their Power. I Am Not Trying to Influence Anyone's Mind Here And I Am Sure Most People Know This. Just For Those Who Have Been Misled Slightly, It Is Worth Remembering This If And When Preparing Such Rituals!

Yours,

The Magical Fabadon
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BBB
post Jan 13 2011, 11:56 AM
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That is just your belief. Many believe other things. Your statement does not even hold liquid.

For instance, what of those spirits of one's Ancestors and Heroes brought back to aid that are just that spirits? Wights and similar, those who willingly answer the call?

At this time the Empire faces many threats, The Land faces many threats, those able to safely call and use such powers responsibly should not be denied such.

Kei-Ry


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DanM
post Jan 13 2011, 11:58 AM
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I personally think you are over reacting Fabadon

The miracle taints the body, this I understand. But this can be removed by purifying it, am I right?
Is there any proof that it holds a spirit in torment?

Its our responsibility to defend those that cant. If that means doing some distasteful things, then well.

Willock
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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
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Flanners
post Jan 13 2011, 12:29 PM
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I Fully Understand Doing Things That Totally Go Against One's Beliefs. I Have Done Them Before For The Land And I'll Do It Again. I Think Metracius, Lord Templar Of Our Order Legend Taught Us This Through His UnDeath!

To Answer Your Questions....

Yes...The Taint Is The Suffering I Refer To. I Have Had It Done To Mine Twice! The Purification Prayer Does Remove The Corruption, Though This Ritual Is Incredibly Taxing and Few People Know It.

With Regard To Spectral Undead...They Are Spirits Of Pure Evil Summoned Straight From The Undead Realm. There Is No Taint To Any Spirits, Though These Creatures Are Malevolent And Malicious!

I'll Say The Same Thing Again...I'm Not Having a Go At Anyone, We All Have To Make Our Choices And I Am Not Denying Anything! But When Summoning Dead Heroes, Ancestors Or However One Wants To Dress It Up, If It Involves Animating Undead and a Dead Body, Then That Dead Body's Spirit Will Suffer Greatly. I Would Hope This Was Common Knowledge To Most Seasoned Mercenaries!

Fabs
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JulianW
post Jan 13 2011, 12:52 PM
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I think most knights who have travelled with me will agree that those Heroes who come at my call get the job done.

Your opinions are noted and I will not try to sway you. However I am not about to change my methods. Tavis once offered me the chance to change and become a priest of light. I do not believe I would be half as much use to the people of the Empire had I accepted it.

Aramis DeVille



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DanM
post Jan 13 2011, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE(Flanners @ Jan 13 2011, 12:29 PM) *
I Would Hope This Was Common Knowledge To Most Seasoned Mercenaries!


I've heard it said before by Priests of Light, but no-one has ever proven it to me

I don't think this an appropriate place for religious preaching

Willock
Lord Seeker


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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
A one-man revolution against the world.
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ethuil
post Jan 13 2011, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE(Flanners @ Jan 13 2011, 12:29 PM) *
But When Summoning Dead Heroes, Ancestors Or However One Wants To Dress It Up, If It Involves Animating Undead and a Dead Body, Then That Dead Body's Spirit Will Suffer Greatly.


I find this assumption, and the assumption that summoning Dead Heroes is merely 'dressing it up', to be exceptionally offensive. It's all very well and good to have your opinion and the thing about the Knights is that we have lots of different people with lots of different opinions.

Preaching has absolutely no place here - it will only cause upset and I like to think that unlike some groups we can put aside the differences we have in order to work for the good of the Empire.

Aoife Bursey


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DanM
post Jan 13 2011, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE(ethuil @ Jan 13 2011, 03:33 PM) *
Preaching has absolutely no place here - it will only cause upset and I like to think that unlike some groups we can put aside the differences we have in order to work for the good of the Empire.


For the good of its people.

I think this conversation is now over. You've gotten your message out there Fabadon, but preaching to your Brother and Sister Knights is not something we do. If you have an issue with someone's beliefs, please bring it up with their Lord of Order.

Willock
Lord Seeker


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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
A one-man revolution against the world.
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MattJ
post Jan 13 2011, 04:16 PM
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Brothers and Sisters, let's all not forget that we're here to do our duty, protect the land and the Great Freedom. We must all use what is at our disposal to protect our people. To serve in Undeath is no torment for me....it is an honour.

Remus Athanyn
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Flanners
post Jan 13 2011, 04:24 PM
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I Find The Presence of Undead Extremely Offensive!

I'll Say It A Third Time...I'm Not Telling Anyone What To Do, I'm Not Preaching, I'm Not Having A Go At Anybody And I'm Not Trying To Change Anybody. I Have Met Everybody Who Has Replied Here And Am Thrilled With The Diversity Of The Knights Of The Land...Merely Stating a Stone Wall Fact Which Seems To Have Been Led Astray Somewhat.

Anyway, Happy Voting,

F
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DanM
post Jan 13 2011, 04:29 PM
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You don't have to like your Brother Knights

What you state is not a "Stone Wall Fact"

This conversation is OVER. That is an order

Willock
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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
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dnsmantra
post Jan 13 2011, 04:59 PM
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Power and it's shaping is just that, power. It is influenced and shaped by the minds, thoughts and actions of those who wield it. That one considers a form or touching of power 'corrupt' and another does not is just the same. It is opinion and conjecture and the putting of a human (or otherwise) veneer on the base that such is at the end of things just power, to be manipulated as one might see fit to help as best one can. People sometimes revile dark spirits, or those powers of necromancy; but they are just powers. I could take those powers, shape them and let another use them to call blessings of light, of healing.

We all have different skills, different opinions and our beliefs shape what we believe is right or wrong in respect of power. I am not going to argue whether they are right or wrong because the individual will believe that they are, but will simply say that that is what they are; opinions.

Personally I have no issue with the use of any such powers. One can always reverse or unweave the traces left by such and a spirit of a hero called forth to serve again is not suffering by doing so; his thoughts, memories and form are become manifest through a weaving of power and are willing to stand and serve again. Some choose to return in an undead form, or are called by those who shape the power as such. Others within the faith of which I am part can call heroes in other ways. That is part of the shaping and the influence of the living.

In the end, it is the actions we take, rather than the power we wield that matters.

Mirras
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Carlo
post Jan 13 2011, 11:05 PM
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I don't think it appropriate Willock, to order the prevention of a potential interesting theological discussion, or to prevent people from sharing their own beliefs and views.

I think, that as brothers we should feel that we can share our thoughts, views and opinions with each others like adults without the need of coming to blows.

Only through discussion, can we truely understand. If Fabadon hadn't spoken out, he would be harbouring dangerous feelings of doubt for the order, and doubt for those of his brothers who would use such powers that would offend him. At least now he has spoken, and those of us know his views and where applicable will accept them.

It won't change the methods Aramis and I use in order to help protect the Land and it's people, but it may well change how the subject is approached. I feel it is important to share beliefs and views among ourselves.

Mirras makes some very clear, valid points which wouldn't have come up had this discussion not began.

I am capable of performing the Rites of Purification, for future reference and should anyone be in need. Be aware that Holy Water is required for said Rite, of which I have none in my possesion.

Summoning spectral spirits - in the matter of my faith we summon the spirits of heroes gone before, to aid us. They do so willingly, and helpfully. Specifically, the teachings of my Church ensure that the spirits of the dead summoned will always remain respectful to those allies of the summoner also.

Bodies...Again, the body, once dead is but an empty vessel. If it is the body of the enemy, I am certain we would be making no effort to restore our enemies to life. As a result, we may sometimes use this body, this empty vessel to give an old Hero a chance once more to fight. Yes, it's evil, but the nature of vengance, of anger, of war is sometimes associated with such. My dark spirits are certainly associated with angry, war spirits. Once the body has housed an undead spirit, it indeed makes it trickier for the original spirit to return. I have never used the body of someone who I considered an ally to house the spirit of another Hero gone before. It's just rude - I would use the body of an enemy.

Many legionaires willingly offer their bodies to be used to house undead spirits should the need arise in battle. For the common man to do this, to know, once he falls in battle that is it for him, it is often considered an honour to fight beyond death.

A sword, in the wrong hand, slaying innocents and peons - is evil. A sword used to slay an evil Balrog is righteous... The sword is but a tool.

I summon an Angel from the Heavens, or a Spirit of an old Dead Hero, who for some reason couldn't go to a heaven. Maybe because he was but a common man and the heavens had no place for him. I would summon them to do the same thing, to aid, and help the Land, the People and this fine Empire upon which we live.

We share an Oath. The comment about 'not having to like each other' - is frankly, pedantic and largely stupid. Imagine if everyone within the order disliked each other. Chaos would be abound. So, you're right - we don't have to like each other - but I'd like to think at least, most of us did.

Yes, the Oath means we stick together, but our personal friendships drive us even further than we could possibly manage if we didn't have them.

Of course, I no longer hold a title within the Knights - but it is important we stand up for what we believe in, and I feel very strongly subjects like this should be approached as open and as honestly as possible.

Andric
Former Lord Knight
High Priest of Dead Heroes
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Jan
post Jan 13 2011, 11:13 PM
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Andric,

I disagree. The Order is no place for proselytising. In joining the order we agreed to put our differences aside.

Argue outside the order, not inside it.

Sigurd


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Jasper
post Jan 14 2011, 12:56 AM
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When we formed this order we agreed to set aside our differences for the good of the land and its people. None of you were there for those early discussions; we argued long and hard about all manner of things. Grievances which had festered for years were laid to rest. Understanding was gained, compromises made (mostly, it has to be said, by those on the side of light). Some came to realise that the Knights were not for them. Others, hearing of the discussions, realised that they would be welcome where once they were rejected. We grew stronger.

Since then this openmindedness has been abused, many times, and by some still to this day hiding within our ranks. Yet I still believe that it was the right choice and that even if such abuse rankles, in spite of it we are made stronger and the people of the land benefit.

I think that it is important that these things are spoken about openly, that opinions are aired. If the point comes up in the midst of battle, lives will be lost. Talk about them now, in peace.


Moonglum


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aaaarrrggh
post Jan 14 2011, 01:36 AM
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Blimey I didn't sign uo to some sort of cult to blindly follow a leader unquestioningly. I think it's absolutely right that we should discuss our differences of opinion now rather than as Moonglum has stated in the heat of battle. We are not some sort of Imperial Legion where one can be ordered not to speak their mind and if we are then quite frankly I'll be off.

Luther John Tanner
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Church of Dead Heroes


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DanM
post Jan 14 2011, 08:59 AM
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I wanted the end of the conversation for these reasons

Matters of faith and belief cause arguments. And its done just that.

Maybe I shouldn't have put my foot down, and its nice to see how little respect a direct order actually has. Since this discussion clearly wants to be had, I have rescinded it.

If there was a concern, of course it should be raised. But not in a manner that comes across as lecturing your Brothers on matters of their own faiths and beliefs. Faith is personal. Concerns can easily be brought to the leadership to consider. There was me thinking there was this structure for a reason.

There is nothing wrong with healthy discussion. Except that where matters of faith lie, and this is a discussion on faith and belief
Willock


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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
A one-man revolution against the world.
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Jasper
post Jan 14 2011, 01:24 PM
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I don't believe you have any right to issue such an order, Willock. To be honest I'd look hard at a Lord Knight who tried to impose that level of control, let alone a mere Lord Seeker.


Moonglum


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DanM
post Jan 14 2011, 01:30 PM
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I personally thought I was stopping an argument before it happen.

I could easily see this spiralling into a shouting match, and didn't want that to happen.

Its always been that matters of faith and religion are put aside. I still don't think its appropriate.

Willock


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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
A one-man revolution against the world.
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MarkCox
post Jan 14 2011, 02:15 PM
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I think its a good thing to talk about these things within the Order, a reasoned argument, a debate helps to clear the air.

I does seem that the Empire is becoming more 'accepting' of the channelling of Evil Spirits, and the Knights also following suit, I just hope for all our souls, that we are not part of some elaborate plan, the Empire, torn apart by differing factions from within...

Harlot


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