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> A humble request to leave the church.
BenG
post Dec 22 2019, 08:13 PM
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My Lady Zhara

I would humbly request your permission to leave the church but with an earnest desire to remain a supporter and friend of the church.

I have been considering my position for a while and whilst I truly believe that our faith brings a great deal of good to Primus and that the undead scourge that is responsible for so much suffering in our lands needs a strong and dedicated adversary, I have come to believe that my efforts would be better employed elsewhere.

In my travels, I have encountered some who engage with the undead or indeed who are undead themselves who have done nothing but aid the party to complete missions vital to the wellbeing of primus and have done so with zeal. This has shaken my once unwavering faith.

Today, on a quest with a brother knight of the land, I was questioned in my approach to dealing with Peons who were willing to sacrifice themselves to an existence of undeath solely to protect other peons and whilst I put my case strongly, I did not entirely believe all that I said.

Do not misunderstand me, I still strongly believe that the overwhelming part of the undead here on Primus are malignant and evil and I will still act to protect Primus from their influence, but having seen the rise of evil faiths such as the Churches of the Destroyer, Ruin and SoFE, I feel that I must dedicate myself to a church who is focused on their destruction.

I wish to go and join the Church of St Michael where I will continue to fight the good fight and protect our realm from nefarious undead but where I feel the beliefs of my heart are more strongly represented.

Your humble servant

Rudy
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Carlo
post Dec 22 2019, 08:36 PM
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Hello Rudy,

I’m not Zhara, or even anyone that important - but I’ve been around a while so would like to offer my advice

A great elf once said “There is more to the world than just stars”.

I can understand if you feel the faith of the Lady of the Stars and Skies is not for you. She deems the creatures of undeath and those that summon them abhorrent, without compromise. And, rightfully so. No matter what reasons they are dressed up with, evil is evil. The gift of sacrificing oneself to help their land is admirable, but not when it comes to the undead. If they want to give their lives in servitude, there are ways without embracing such evil. And people like us to get in the way and be their shield against the darkness so they don’t need to get its ‘help’.

As to changing faith, St Michael is a God of War. He doesn’t like em either you know.

Have you thought about the other Valar? There are many. What do you like to do as a mercenary? What power do you wield? What do you do when you’re not a Mercenary?

I’m happy to teach you. There’s Tulkas, Champion of the Stars. He loves a good fight. Or the Gentle? If you like to heal people.
Ulmo, Lord of the Waters, perhaps the Crafter if you like to make things. Valesius the Redeemer if you believe in redemption. There are many, many more I’d be happy to tell you about.

There’s a faith for everyone. A Valar to suit your beliefs I’m sure. But don’t just go along with St Michael just because it’s so big at the moment. Do what’s right for you. Zhara, and us will support you, but we are one of the strongest faiths on Primus, despite some of our huge differences. Let us help.

Good fortune be with you

Bradley Baker
Champion of the Stars
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Padallen
post Dec 22 2019, 08:40 PM
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Not addressed to me, but also not a private message. So feel free to ignore me or listen.

The church of St Micheal is in my opinion is less (or possible equally) dedicated to the destruction of evil than we are. I don't see what values you think they hold that we do not. Have you travelled out with may other members of our faith on mercenary missions? Perhaps this is what is needed before abandoning our god and faith!

Lucious Lux


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isbiraven
post Dec 22 2019, 08:42 PM
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Rudy,

not sure we have met, my apologies, I have been tending the farmstead for far too long.

You turn away from our Lady because you have seen some "good" undead.. this has been spoken of before when other members of faith have been members of the Knights of the land.
Evil is a pimple on the face of creation, undeath is of its self nothing more than evil that has been animated from death and walks the ground. it is an ugly thing that seeks to dull the beauty of life just by being.

If your vision has become tarnished with a twilight view then I truly weep for your soul.

Grit.
Wrath of the Crucible.
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Carlo
post Dec 22 2019, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE(Padallen @ Dec 22 2019, 08:40 PM) *
Not addressed to me, but also not a private message. So feel free to ignore me or listen.

The church of St Micheal is in my opinion is less (or possible equally) dedicated to the destruction of evil than we are. I don't see what values you think they hold that we do not. Have you travelled out with may other members of our faith on mercenary missions? Perhaps this is what is needed before abandoning our god and faith!

Lucious Lux


Woah easy there. No need to be a dick about it and accuse the poor lad of abandoning.

Let’s help, and teach him more - for our faith is complicated. Then, if he still decides to leave, let him go so he can see what else is out there. Our paths in life lead us to different places, and it’s not about where we end up but how we get there after all.

Bradley
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BenG
post Dec 22 2019, 09:05 PM
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Brothers

Thank you for your words. I am a warrior by first profession, born to war but in protection of people, not the waging of war for war’s sake. I am only recently begun on my journey to my faith and have only achieved the second level of my training.

A church for war is certainly one that is aligned to my base nature and I entirely agree that St Michael is focused on fighting evil where it lurks and that is also my calling in my heart.

The discrepancy here is the definition of evil. Is it a unilateral, binary decision that one dark of heart or who communes with the undead is inherently evil or is it a judgement of actions and the outcomes of those actions that define evil.

One of our own, Effix, not long ago killed a mercenary on a mercenary hire. Admittedly, the one he killed was a necromancer but whilst my heart tells me this was right, from what I have subsequently learned, I am not convinced that what Effix did was in the best interest of protecting primus but solely of persecuting his own, single-minded beliefs.

Whilst I share some of the beliefs that prompted Effix to take the actions he took, I do not share them all. If, as many stories I have heard, this necromancer was calling the dwarven ancestors to protect the party and the greater realm and not slaughtering innocents to fill with evil undead spirits then this is not a binary decision, needs the benefit of perspective and wisdom and should not be a unilateral view.

Will I continue to fight the nefarious undead scourge wherever I may find it? Without doubt. I only question whether all are indeed nefarious and prefer to judge evil on action rather than paradigm.

I hope this helps to explain my thoughts and my desire to leave our faith on the very best of terms.

Rudy
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Carlo
post Dec 22 2019, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE(BenG @ Dec 22 2019, 09:05 PM) *
Brothers

Thank you for your words. I am a warrior by first profession, born to war but in protection of people, not the waging of war for war’s sake. I am only recently begun on my journey to my faith and have only achieved the second level of my training.

A church for war is certainly one that is aligned to my base nature and I entirely agree that St Michael is focused on fighting evil where it lurks and that is also my calling in my heart.

The discrepancy here is the definition of evil. Is it a unilateral, binary decision that one dark of heart or who communes with the undead is inherently evil or is it a judgement of actions and the outcomes of those actions that define evil.

One of our own, Effix, not long ago killed a mercenary on a mercenary hire. Admittedly, the one he killed was a necromancer but whilst my heart tells me this was right, from what I have subsequently learned, I am not convinced that what Effix did was in the best interest of protecting primus but solely of persecuting his own, single-minded beliefs.

Whilst I share some of the beliefs that prompted Effix to take the actions he took, I do not share them all. If, as many stories I have heard, this necromancer was calling the dwarven ancestors to protect the party and the greater realm and not slaughtering innocents to fill with evil undead spirits then this is not a binary decision, needs the benefit of perspective and wisdom and should not be a unilateral view.

Will I continue to fight the nefarious undead scourge wherever I may find it? Without doubt. I only question whether all are indeed nefarious and prefer to judge evil on action rather than paradigm.

I hope this helps to explain my thoughts and my desire to leave our faith on the very best of terms.

Rudy


Yeah, sorry. Effix was kinda my fault...

He used to be a priest of Dunatis don’t you know. I met him on my very first ever mercenary mission, and caught him trying to cast a halt miracle on one of our group mid fight to get him killed! I mean, he tried it off a scroll, and on a half elf so he weren’t too bright. But I chased him down and threw me knives at him til he died. I then moved his spirit on and he was reborn as Effix. Little narrow minded I guess, but he’s born of the angels of war, and that’s kinda what they do. They don’t think. They just know what is right and wrong and act on it. So he’s not really a good example of us as a faith, more so an instrument of action.

It does sound like you’ve made up your mind though, but I’ll leave Zhara to say what she needs to say. But I do wish you all the best of luck in the future, and remember, we’re always here if you need anything.

My last piece of advice. Please don’t ever fall into the trap of acceptable evil. Because it isn’t. Evil is evil. Throughout whatever debates you come to, just remember that simple fact. If you’re judging evil on action, be careful. Like, when someone evil is nice to me, and a good mercenary, helps people out and shares his potions and stuff. You gotta think. Right. He seems nice... WHY is he evil? He’s done something you know. He’s not just evil cos his mam knitted him a black hat. He’s done something.

Best of luck to ya.

Bradley
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OxMatt
post Dec 22 2019, 10:09 PM
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Dear Rudy,

You should of course follow the calling of your soul on this matter, as in all things.

I very much hope, however, that you make your decision based on the realities of our faith (and of the faith you hope to join), rather than the example set by one or two extremists. I would be delighted to speak to you if it would be helpful, as someone who has followed the Valar all of my life but remains a Knight of the Land and a member of Imperial government.

Yours ever,

Senator Ignatius Loyola
ex Voice of the Knights of the Land

P.S. My experience of Castiel, and Anarchus before him, has not suggested to me that the faith of St Miichael encourages a relaxed view on the state of undeath....
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JamesBroderick
post Dec 23 2019, 09:09 AM
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QUOTE(BenG @ Dec 22 2019, 09:05 PM) *
Brothers

Thank you for your words. I am a warrior by first profession, born to war but in protection of people, not the waging of war for war’s sake. I am only recently begun on my journey to my faith and have only achieved the second level of my training.

A church for war is certainly one that is aligned to my base nature and I entirely agree that St Michael is focused on fighting evil where it lurks and that is also my calling in my heart.

The discrepancy here is the definition of evil. Is it a unilateral, binary decision that one dark of heart or who communes with the undead is inherently evil or is it a judgement of actions and the outcomes of those actions that define evil.

One of our own, Effix, not long ago killed a mercenary on a mercenary hire. Admittedly, the one he killed was a necromancer but whilst my heart tells me this was right, from what I have subsequently learned, I am not convinced that what Effix did was in the best interest of protecting primus but solely of persecuting his own, single-minded beliefs.

Whilst I share some of the beliefs that prompted Effix to take the actions he took, I do not share them all. If, as many stories I have heard, this necromancer was calling the dwarven ancestors to protect the party and the greater realm and not slaughtering innocents to fill with evil undead spirits then this is not a binary decision, needs the benefit of perspective and wisdom and should not be a unilateral view.

Will I continue to fight the nefarious undead scourge wherever I may find it? Without doubt. I only question whether all are indeed nefarious and prefer to judge evil on action rather than paradigm.

I hope this helps to explain my thoughts and my desire to leave our faith on the very best of terms.

Rudy



killing necromancers is always better for proctecting primus undead raising scum.

Effix
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Dave
post Dec 23 2019, 09:33 AM
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I agree with Effix, if they raise undead, they die.


Simple


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Ryan
post Dec 23 2019, 09:48 AM
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I'm fairly new here, I traveled with the faithful relatively recently and met Effix and Ignatius... I think they were both stand up chaps but definitely opposite ends of the spectrum which is odd for a faith but goes to show why there is a home here for everyone.

Personally I don't have any funny powers to see the sinners so I think it's usually best to take everyone at face value and then kill them if they are bad! It's easier with Orcs, Drowe and Dark Elves, you know they are wrong ens when you meet them! Obviously if you go out with Effix who has powers and he tells you they are a wrong en probably kill them cos you know, Angels are rarely wrong about these things!

Slushy
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BenG
post Dec 23 2019, 10:16 AM
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Avondale, Effix, thank you for your input and for helping to truly crystallise my thoughts and confirm my reasons.

Should we also then simply kill outlaws out of hand too? They are clearly wrong'uns by this simplistic rationale. Is there no room for redemption?

Ignatius, I would welcome your thoughts and knowledge from your experience which is significantly greater than mine but I would also say that my desire to leave is as strong as ever, if not more so after these recent comments.

My Lady Zhara, I eagerly await your thoughts on this matter

Your humble servant

Rudy
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JamesBroderick
post Dec 23 2019, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE(BenG @ Dec 23 2019, 10:16 AM) *
Avondale, Effix, thank you for your input and for helping to truly crystallise my thoughts and confirm my reasons.

Should we also then simply kill outlaws out of hand too? They are clearly wrong'uns by this simplistic rationale. Is there no room for redemption?

Ignatius, I would welcome your thoughts and knowledge from your experience which is significantly greater than mine but I would also say that my desire to leave is as strong as ever, if not more so after these recent comments.

My Lady Zhara, I eagerly await your thoughts on this matter

Your humble servant

Rudy



Rudy im a outlaw but not a wrong un. If the person is evil and a undead raiser they will dealth with by murdering them its simply black and white stop trying to blur the lines

anyways good luck with your new adventures and finding a new faith

Effix
ps if you every become evil i will hunt you down

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OxMatt
post Dec 23 2019, 10:44 AM
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Constructive as ever, Effix.

Rudy - all I would say is that I would hope that you would take into account that just as Effix and Avondale represent one point of view in the faith, Bradley and I have explained another. If you are looking for a faith in which there are no adherents with whom you disagree, you may be searching a long time.

Bradley has explained that there are many other aspects of our pantheon. I represent and embody one of the Valar, who is focused on mercy, compassion and hope through sorrow. Asta Khan embodies another. And so on. By no means do all of us agree with a simplistic view that it is appropriate to 'murder' (the use of that word by Effix is somewhat indicative, I would suggest) people out of hand, regardless of the situation or context.

Having said all that, Effix and I do agree on one thing, at least. The use of the powers of undeath and the existence of creatures of undeath is anathema. Whilst he would immediately murder any who use or manifest those powers, I and many others take into account the context of the situation. That does not mean that I smile upon the use of such powers. I would stop them wherever it is within my reasonable ability to do so, because they are wrong. If you don't agree at least that the use of powers of undeath is always wrong (even if you take a moderate view on whether it is appropriate always to resort to violence in order to ameliorate the situation) then you probably are correct to be looking for another path.

I hope this helps - and I wish you the very best of fortune in whatever you chose to do. I hope that our paths will cross one day and we can speak at more length of all of this.

Ignatius
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Fionamullin
post Dec 23 2019, 03:48 PM
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Rudy,
Apologies for the late reply.
Administration takes time.
Undead come in many forms, and those that are not evil, and doing no harm to people or the realm deserve to be judged on their own merits, in my opinion.
The dwarf in question is in his opinion summoning his ancestors to serve him, in my opinion when you look at a ghoul and its a goul you have your answer, if its Fred investigated it further.
As many have pointed out our faith is complicated.
Please can we meet and discuss this over the dawn as there are many options rather than embracing the fires of heaven which can be harsh and less forgiving than any of the aspects of our lady.
However if the star light has left you of course you have my permission to leave

I'd also like to point out St Michael, Talther and many other faiths have outlaws within their ranks, mortal law is not that important compared to your soul, sorry Ignatious.

I used to be a Knight but couldn't reconcile my faith with some of their members.

It is entirely your choice of course.

With hope and in starlight,
Zhara
There are also many ways to deal necromancers.


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OxMatt
post Dec 23 2019, 05:03 PM
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I'm not sure why you are apologising to me, dearest. Mortal law is significantly less important than one's soul, and I would never say otherwise.

Ignatius
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BenG
post Dec 23 2019, 08:49 PM
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My Lady Zhara

I appreciate your magnanimous response and it is refreshing and reassuring to hear your personal views and to see the wisdom contained therein.

I was not actually targeting outlaws as I believe they too can be redeemed but was simply trying to make a point about single minded views to one that I understood to be an outlaw.

I will take time to dwell upon your words and whilst I am not able to attend to protect Primus at the final dawn, I’m sure I can find you to speak further.

Rudy
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