IPB WARNING [2] Declaration of class_bbcode::convert_emoticon($matches = Array) should be compatible with class_bbcode_core::convert_emoticon($code = '', $image = '') (Line: 0 of /sources/classes/bbcode/class_bbcode.php)
The Church, the Valar and the future - Labyrinthe Forum
IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> The Church, the Valar and the future, a discussion for the faithful
JustinC
post Aug 22 2011, 11:00 AM
Post #1


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,199
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 51



All,

Firstly, apologies for the intrusion, but I feel that it is important that events are discussed and decisions made with some haste. I apologise for things that may be missing, but I believe I have captured most facts.


First, the history of events, put simply and in terms as Primal as I can manage:

Eru sang the world into existence. This included the death of things (overseen by Mandos), the chaos intrinsic in nature and the destructive aspects of the world - volcanoes, earthquakes and similar. These things he tasked Morgoth to oversee. However, for various reasons, Morgoth twisted and turned these destructive energies, fed on them and sought, eventually, to overthrow the Valar and destroy the world. Some years ago, he was defeated.

And another rose to try and fill the gap he left. This was stopped by the Church, and Valasius created.

And now, another rises to try and fill this gap - a vessel of divine power chosen by a man we know only as Christian. He plans to slay the Valar and steal the last sparks of their divine power, placing them within this vessel to create a new 'dark' valar.


Things to consider:

Every time a dark deed is performed, energy is created. This energy was taken by Morgoth, then taken by Morgoth so power his plans to destroy the world, then taken by Valasius (via Hylos), and now it needs to find somewhere else to go. This power WILL be created by every dark deed, including dark deeds performed by good people.


The Five Potential Futures:

We were shown five potential futures by an angel of the Lady of the Stars. These showed us differing outcomes of various actions we could take now, in this present.

They included:

A future where the Valar sacrificed their own essences to empower the Lady of the Stars to directly oppose the new Dark Valar - a situation similar to Grace and Elbereth joining to face Morgoth, but on a larger scale. This changed things for all followers of the Lady, who found various new aspects to their goddess, and angels were reborn with different aspects. These angels were now capable of having doubts and dark thoughts.

A future where a number of the Valar were slain and a Dark Valar rose in power to save Gothiel from the Myronese. This
Dark Valar permitted a few of the other Valar to persist, in a greatly weakened state.

A future where the dark valar did not rise at all. Gothiel was greatly removed from Primus and the Empire. Any dark thought, including jealousy or anger, resulted in darkness devouring the person who had the thought. Any child who was suspected of growing up to have dark thoughts were chased from Gothiel.

A future where a member of the church had chosen to take up the mantle of Dark Valar. This Dark Valar worked with the other Valar to protect Gothiel from the Myronese and other threats.

A future where Christian succeeded in killing a number of the Valar, and our arguing and inability to act caused more pain and suffering, and we failed.

The decisions:

1 - What do we do regarding the Valar? Do we help them merge in to the Lady of the Stars, do we try to save them all, do we try to save some of them? Or something else.

I ponder if we cannot take sparks of those that wish to remain on Primus and place them in new vessels, such that these vessels ascend to be closer to the Throne and thus safeguarded from Christian's rites. Those that do not wish to remain on Primus, we assist in removing their influence from this plane, again safeguarding them from Christian.


2 - What do we do regarding the perennial issue of a Dark Valar?

This is a question that will cause much debate.


I will remind those of the Church, if I may, that time is very much of the essence. Within a month, Christian's rites will be enacted and we will very much be reacting, rather than acting. I would also like to remind the Church of the Lady of the Stars that they are discussing the future of a number of Valar, not just the Lady, and also the followers of these Valar. It is not simply what is best for the Lady, but what is best for all of the Valar.


Eldias
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jasper
post Aug 22 2011, 11:17 AM
Post #2


Arch-Enemy
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,236
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 40



For me the best of all those possible futures (although I do not believe that there are but five possibilities) is that the mantle of the Dark Valar is taken by one of us and all of the Valar therefore remain and are once more, after so long, united.

Evensong


--------------------
No of course I won't ref. Are you mad?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JustinC
post Aug 22 2011, 11:39 AM
Post #3


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,199
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 51



I am sure that there are other potential courses of action. Those listed are the ones I recall being put before us. I personally believe that the potential future you have mentioned is also the best of those listed. I also believe, regardless of other courses of action, that is offers a potential method of managing the inevitabilities of Primus, such as they are.

Eldias
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Christine
post Aug 22 2011, 11:50 AM
Post #4


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,045
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 110



The choice to be made is what will happen to the Valar on this plane alone - on all others they will continue to exist in the forms in which they are worshipped there. We are not making a decision that would change their nature or deprive the Lady of her brothers and sisters.

We did not set these events that now threaten the Valar in motion, we are seeking to protect the Lady and the Valar as best we can from evil men who seek their destruction and corruption for their own ends.

There are not only 5 possibilities, nor are the outcomes of those possibilities inevitably what was seen in the visions - now that we know what may happen if we go down a path, we can still take that path but with care and an eye to the likely danger.

The Lady cannot see what will come to pass regarding the Valar, and wishes that this choice be made by those mortals that love her in this place.

I think that we should try and save as many of the Valar as we can, and at the same time ensure that they are able to be well known to the faith and the commonfolk - the future in which they were known only by vague titles and not understood does not seem to me to be ideal.If we can take action to empower them or shield them by placing a part of their essence in angelic or mortal vessels before they are assailed, we should do so. We should not remake them in this place as less than the Lady, that feels wrong to me.

As to the nature of evil, here I think I will have to disagree with some of what has been said. I do not believe that it is necessary that there should be evil, or inevitable that it will return. With faith and love in the Lady, and if we will give our lives for it, we or the many that come after us can inherit a beautiful world free from darkness. If the nature of this plane is such that evil will always return, then we must change it, if it is by some Decree of the glass Throne then we should shatter it and overthrow those that honour it.

If, for now, we cannot do those things because a decision must be made in the next month or face dire consequences for all, then the least worst option in my view would be for one of the faith to take on that mantle if and only if they could be bound such that they could not use that power. I do not know how this might be done, and I accept that it is not a course of action that has met with entire success in the past, but this must be better than that the mantle of evil be taken by one of our faith (Eldias suggested himself, Evensong was also mentioned, I have no opinion beyond what I say here) and we somehow accept its use- in the vision I believe that person's forces fought with us to defend Gothiel. We cannot condone evil or begin to accept it, even if that evil might bring us benefit or be created from the sacrifice of one of our own. Although I think I was dead then, or something.

We should all try and agree as best we can, so we can have a plan and avoid the future where we fought each other and one of the Valar was slain trying to stop it. But our great strength is that we all love the Lady in our own ways and follow her teachings as our heart's tell us we must, so I do not think it would be helpful or even possible for people to be compelled to a path. I would very much like to know what Basil thinks.

I hope that makes sense.

Falorn



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MartinW
post Aug 22 2011, 11:56 AM
Post #5


Militiaman
****

Group: Members
Posts: 264
Joined: 9-February 08
Member No.: 359



QUOTE(JustinC @ Aug 22 2011, 12:39 PM) *
I am sure that there are other potential courses of action. Those listed are the ones I recall being put before us. I personally believe that the potential future you have mentioned is also the best of those listed. I also believe, regardless of other courses of action, that is offers a potential method of managing the inevitabilities of Primus, such as they are.

Eldias


I also agree that this would be the best method. It should also be noted that in the first vision, it is actually Christian who destroys the Valar and before he is able to use the sparks that are left behind, they are absorbed into the Lady. I don't know how relevant that is for everyone but I think it's best to know that the Valar themselves did not make a decision to sacrifice themselves. Of course I mat be wrong (more often than not, this is the case).

Horace
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jasper
post Aug 22 2011, 12:21 PM
Post #6


Arch-Enemy
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,236
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 40



It does indeed, Falorn, and thank you.

I will speak plainly, to avoid confusion. I apologise in advance if any of this seems like Elven arrogance or self-aggrandisement; such is certainly not my intention.

There is a place for darkness and evil in the world. Sadly, as a result of the treachery of the Enemy, this is so. Once created, it cannot be undone. There is little to be gained by worrying over how this situation has come about - our efforts should be on achieving the best possible outcome. It is my belief that this would be achieved by one of us freely and willingly taking the mantle of the Dark Valar upon themselves, bound by whatever chains can be wrought to guard against future errors of judgement (on the part of mortals foolish enough to give praise to Evil).

I propose myself for this task.



Evensong Moriquendi


--------------------
No of course I won't ref. Are you mad?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
giles
post Aug 22 2011, 12:32 PM
Post #7


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,080
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 68





A future where a member of the church had chosen to take up the mantle of Dark Valar. This Dark Valar worked with the other Valar to protect Gothiel from the Myronese and other threats.

I may be thick but that one about the Dark Valar working with the other Valar doesn't make sense.
Can we stop using the term dark and use the word 'bad'
Won't the bad Valar not work with the others at all, won't s/he just betray them ? Because he/she is bad and that's what bad people do. It all sounds a bit like it'll start off well intentioned and then gradually those good intentions will turn and be corrupted because that's what will happen by its very nature.
If this did happen,it should be someone willing who was really weak and they should just be locked up in the void with Thomas and Falorn keeping guard or something.
But it will all go wrong because the bad valar won't be good, he/she won't co-operate or help or be nice because then he'd be good and that's not what it is. Even I know that.

I like
A future where the dark valar did not rise at all. Gothiel was greatly removed from Primus and the Empire. Any dark thought, including jealousy or anger, resulted in darkness devouring the person who had the thought. Any child who was suspected of growing up to have dark thoughts were chased from Gothiel.
But it seems like hiding away from the evil of Primus rather than facing it and fighting it. So is probably wrong.

I'd like to do what Basil and Falorn say but should probably think for myself ? What does Basil say we should do ?

Light.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JustinC
post Aug 22 2011, 12:42 PM
Post #8


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,199
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 51



QUOTE(Jasper @ Aug 22 2011, 01:21 PM) *
It does indeed, Falorn, and thank you.

I will speak plainly, to avoid confusion. I apologise in advance if any of this seems like Elven arrogance or self-aggrandisement; such is certainly not my intention.

There is a place for darkness and evil in the world. Sadly, as a result of the treachery of the Enemy, this is so. Once created, it cannot be undone. There is little to be gained by worrying over how this situation has come about - our efforts should be on achieving the best possible outcome. It is my belief that this would be achieved by one of us freely and willingly taking the mantle of the Dark Valar upon themselves, bound by whatever chains can be wrought to guard against future errors of judgement (on the part of mortals foolish enough to give praise to Evil).

I propose myself for this task.
Evensong Moriquendi



I would support Evensong in this, and believe him to be a wise choice, given the circumstances.

Eldias Alastrarra
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bruno
post Aug 22 2011, 12:46 PM
Post #9


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,071
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 41



I'm paying close attention to this but as all know, I have not been close to recent events but have been in seclusion. I am not willing at this point to make pronouncements as high priest when others understand the situation more fully than I do.

I will speak on the subject once more debate has taken place. At this time it is not clear to me what is involved with this hypothetical 'dark valar', and why it might be a desirable course. Therefore I am continuing to listen.

In Starlight,

Basil
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ethuil
post Aug 22 2011, 12:51 PM
Post #10


Plot Dump NPC
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,539
Joined: 2-May 08
From: Valinor
Member No.: 495



I do not think now is the time for naïvete.

If someone, even one of the Quendi, takes the mantle of the Dark Valar - they will be unequivocably and unquestionably changed by this power. It is not so great a leap of faith or of logic to consider that they could with time become not only Dark, but also evil.

I say this not because I believe Evensong, or indeed anyone else, to be ignorant of that fact. I say it because I believe...I believe that change to be wrought upon them entirely right. One of the things that the scholar's studies said has rung in my head since the moment I read it; that Illuvatar would never have permitted the Enemy to sing the Song awry. Above all things I believe in the Song. Therefore, however abhorrent it might have felt at first...I cannot help but concede that Illuvatar intended for evil, not merely darkness, to exist.

As to why? That I cannot tell you. I am no Truthsinger - but I know that there is a darkness in all of us, a wish for vengeance and pain and destruction and I cannot, I must not, ignore this. I tell you this not to...to convert anyone, or to offend them or worse - but because I believe it so wholeheartedly that it would be remiss of me as Their Herald not to at least relate it.

I know that what I say and believe shall be anathema to many of you. I would not have you bear the pain of being forced to turn upon one of your own. I shall therefore go into the West, and aside my Lords and Ladies I shall ever sing of your tales and deeds. My time in these mortal lands is complete.

Amongst the faithful I have met mortals with the hearts of Quendi, and I shall never forget you. Your names shall resound eternally within the boughs of Lórien...especially yours, gwador. You pointed me back to the stars when I was blinded. Don't ever stop shining, my most precious and beautiful brother. I love you, and I always shall.

No in elenath hîlar nan hâd gîn, mellyn nîn.

Boo Baker
Herald of the Valar


--------------------
- Rebecca
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
OxMatt
post Aug 22 2011, 01:02 PM
Post #11


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,752
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Oxford
Member No.: 48



I am accustomed to being somewhat rational. My thoughts on this matter are anything but, as might be imagined. I am, therefore, still attempting to ascertain what course of action I think would be best to pursue.

However, for the avoidance of misunderstanding, it should be said that:

- Should my Lady vanish from Primus, either as a result of being 'slain' here, or absorbed into another divine being, I will not remain on this plane.

- Should an active choice be made to abandon my Lady at any point, I will contend it by all means at my disposal. You should all understand, as I'm sure you do, that my ultimate loyalty lies with my faith, and not with your Church.

I do not wish to sound combative or unreasonable. Indeed, my Lady would not wish me to be, I am sure - and I hope and trust that neither of these issues will become 'live'. However, it is only reasonable, as I was explaining to Jericho yesterday, for people to understand my ultimate position, and my current feelings.

It may be, Boo, that I will soon join you. If not, I am sure we shall meet again, in the fullness of time.

Ignatius

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jasper
post Aug 22 2011, 01:09 PM
Post #12


Arch-Enemy
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,236
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 40



QUOTE(giles @ Aug 22 2011, 01:32 PM) *
Won't the bad Valar not work with the others at all, won't s/he just betray them ? Because he/she is bad and that's what bad people do. It all sounds a bit like it'll start off well intentioned and then gradually those good intentions will turn and be corrupted because that's what will happen by its very nature.
If this did happen,it should be someone willing who was really weak and they should just be locked up in the void with Thomas and Falorn keeping guard or something.
But it will all go wrong because the bad valar won't be good, he/she won't co-operate or help or be nice because then he'd be good and that's not what it is. Even I know that.


You're right, of course, but then for the same reason, the power will not go from the world, it will arise somewhere, eventually. When the Enemy was destroyed by the Church many thought that the battle was over, that we had won, but it took mere months for another to rise. It will not go away, it will return. Better, I say, that we choose where and how.

The sad truth is that we lost the war in the instant it began, when Evil entered the world. Since then we have been merely trying to win all of the battles. If we can contain this enemy and prevent it growing to power out of our sight, then I say we should do so.

With the best will in the world, Thomas and Falorn are but mortals, vessels for power not their own. In time, they will pass. By the will of my Creator, I am immortal and unceasing and will exist until the ending of the world. If I take this thing within myself and then myself am trapped, enchained, then another battle has been won.


Evensong


--------------------
No of course I won't ref. Are you mad?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
giles
post Aug 22 2011, 02:34 PM
Post #13


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,080
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 68



Yes but you are all good at fighting and spells and stuff. The vessel should be given to someone who isn't.

Light
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jasper
post Aug 22 2011, 02:46 PM
Post #14


Arch-Enemy
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,236
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 40



QUOTE(giles @ Aug 22 2011, 03:34 PM) *
Yes but you are all good at fighting and spells and stuff. The vessel should be given to someone who isn't.

Light


I think you over estimate my prowess with either a sword or magic.



Evensong


--------------------
No of course I won't ref. Are you mad?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DanM
post Aug 22 2011, 02:47 PM
Post #15


Post Police
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 11,989
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Dartford
Member No.: 38



QUOTE(giles @ Aug 22 2011, 03:34 PM) *
Yes but you are all good at fighting and spells and stuff. The vessel should be given to someone who isn't.

Light


I ain't goo' wit' eith'r of 'em t'ings

Scooter


--------------------
QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
A one-man revolution against the world.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dnsmantra
post Aug 22 2011, 05:21 PM
Post #16


Avatar
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,600
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 111



I would support Evensong in taking on the mantle.

Aurora
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DavidFisher
post Aug 22 2011, 05:32 PM
Post #17


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,155
Joined: 28-March 08
From: Ottershaw
Member No.: 446



QUOTE(dnsmantra @ Aug 22 2011, 06:21 PM) *
I would support Evensong.

Aurora


I presume by this you mean you support him taking on the mantle, becoming a creature of evil and then seeking to thwart his dark plans going forward? This is not meant o be a comical statement.

It appears there must be a dark valar so allowing Evensong to take on the mantle and then slaining him for being evil does not serve our needs. He must be allowed to take on the mantle and then allowed to exist. If he exists, he does evil and therefore we would stand against him.

Is this the path we are chosing?

Joshua
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JustinC
post Aug 22 2011, 05:45 PM
Post #18


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,199
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 51



Or, perhaps, Evensong takes up the mantle and every dark deed that is done provides him with power, which he holds within him or unleashes on those who would harm the followers of the Valar, thus turning their own evil against them. Or, Evensong takes up the mantle and, in accordance with his own suggestion, is imprisoned as the Fallen was before him.

I am not certain that it needs saying, but for clarity's sake, I will repeat that I will stand against any Valar or god who might seek to slay the innocent or destroy the world.

If it is decided that this course of action should be taken, and the choice is made to imprison the Dark Valar, I will gladly place a portion of myself as guardian and watcher of the place of imprisonment.

Eldias
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
post Aug 22 2011, 06:28 PM
Post #19





Group:
Posts: 0
Joined: --
Member No.: 0



.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Christine
post Aug 22 2011, 07:07 PM
Post #20


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,045
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 110



Evensong would have my agreement if and only if he can be bound once the power he has taken is within him. It is a horrible sacrifice and there is something so terribly wrong with this world if it, where others do not, compels evil to exist.

Ignatius, I'm not going to let your goddess die too.

Falorn
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 05:40 PM
Original Darkness Skin Created by Danellis
Converted by Mdgshorty of New Horizon Skins