First Points App Help, warning: long! Options

[Ferro]

Let's start by saying what my character is, how I want to play her and what direction I'm thinking of going...

At the moment, I'm a light alfar ranger with 75 monster points to spend.
I am in KoTL, Natural Power & Shadow Legion.
I am thinking of multiclassing archer asap and later a druid type, very possibly forest guardian.

Play style wise, I want to be self sufficient, whether it's through bandages, potions or healing. I'm not looking to do the most damage, have the most AC or become a healer - what I would like to bring to a party is some utility and possibly being able to help heal those with half spirit / no spirit.

Having played a few times now and naively joining KOTL without actually reading up on them, I've decided it's not the guild for me.

To fit with my play style and roleplay, I thought of points app'ing the following in place of a social guild. One opinion was that it wasn't worth giving up the social guild slot for and the other opinion was to add more that I'm requesting, in the form of Wardpacts against plants, trees and animals.

I want to play her very wildernessy and druidy so would prefer to keep down that route.

Here was my initial thoughts:
Called: Self sufficiency
Lose: Social guild slot

Lü has grown up alone in wild & has learnt to rely on self & the wilderness around her.

Pre-req: From having stop bleeding & survival.
Gains: 36/36pt of bandaging which can be split 1/1 - requires phys rep and 30secs of roleplay.
Reasoning: on her journey to mercenary missions, gathers required herbs.

Gains: 6/day (-/-) natural brews - changes standard 6pt healing potion to 9/9 ep infused potion - requires 30 sec of roleplay.

Pre-req: From having tracking & ley if the lands.
Gains: danger sense in a non built up area.
Reasoning: Lü has learnt to read signs from animals such as birds stop singing, animals hide, leaves stop rustling to indicate danger.



I also thought about creating an ability based on 'ghost' but not use able on neuronic wardings. The reasoning being that everyone knows birds and rats can cross warnings else there'd be a pile of dead bodies at each warding. As my ranger, I have spent lots of time in the wilderness, studying nature and animals, I have learned how to imitate the birds and rats with the way they cross wardings. Obviously this couldn't be cast at will and I'd ask for x/day, or one suggestion was to make it an evocation. I just don't know when to request this one.


Soooo.... Thoughts please on giving up a social guild slot in return for the above, what to keep, add, change or get rid of.


Thanks!

[Mojo]

Most of that seems to sound like a tendency all be it relatively tough. Have you got / are you planning to have one already?

[Jasper]

It's all doable but here are my thoughts;

36pts of loc healing which also heals tblp is roughly 165pts for a scout or monk, assuming that they have 108 tblp (and not counting the cost of having it).

6 x Natural Brew = 18tblp/54loc worth of healing.

All of this is likely to be expensive for someone with no potion/physician skills beyond stop bleeding.

Your character is an Alfar - your probably better off just buying innate Druidic Heals at 36?pts each.

---

Danger Sense in a 'Natural Environment' sounds totally possible.

Innates of Ghost in a 'Natural Environment' sound possible but probably expensive (because of the expensive pre req's of Ghost for Scouts).

---

Generally, all this sounds like a Tradition rather than a replacement for a guild slot. Something like;

"Wanderer"

Gains Danger Sense as Tomb Robber in natural environments (as defined by Loner tendency)
Hedgehog Crossing: x1/day whilst in a natural environment may cross a supernatural warding in a similar manner to Ghost, without the need for requisite immunities to info fx.
Gains First Aid as Scout, which also cures Tblp.
Gains Bandaging skill, which also cures Tblp (cf; Chirugeon)

And maybe some other bits.


My last thought is that you say you plan to go Archer but aren't going to be about high damage grades... Archers are all about the damage grades (because otherwise bows are a bit pointless).


J

[Ferro]

Are tendencies and traditions the same?

If it's more of a tradition than replacement social guild slot then that's cool - I'll go with that as none of the traditions really stood out for me anyway.

If I went with something along the lines of what you said Jasper, what amount of bandaging would I gain? Would it stack with the Shadow Legion bandaging benefit?

Would adding the wardpacts vs trees,plants and animals make it too overpowered? (If I apply for it as a tradition) or could/would I need to have a restriction of some kind do you think?


Ha, the archer thing doesn't really have much logic other than I've always wanted an archer, I think bows and xbows are way cool, it's a cheap way to get some good damage, albeit situational. There's little more to it than the cool factor really!

[giles]

Why not multiclass Druid rather than Archer ? It seems to do most of what you want.
You get Druidic Heal, can buy neutrality vs plants and animals - so can help with healing and do a few other things.
It won't stop you going Archer later and a Ranger can use a bow anyway.
Also before going archer I'd have a go with someone's to see if you like it, as it's an expense - bow/crossbow, arrows/bolts quiver etc. and bolts/arrows can be a pain to get hold of.
If you didn't want to wait 'til your first MC slot (450 pts) - maybe put in for a Tradition that lets you MC Druid at 8th & 0 pts - a bit like the Privileged trad for humans but more limited.

Giles.

[Jasper]

Are tendencies and traditions the same?

If it's more of a tradition than replacement social guild slot then that's cool - I'll go with that as none of the traditions really stood out for me anyway.

If I went with something along the lines of what you said Jasper, what amount of bandaging would I gain? Would it stack with the Shadow Legion bandaging benefit?

Would adding the wardpacts vs trees,plants and animals make it too overpowered? (If I apply for it as a tradition) or could/would I need to have a restriction of some kind do you think?

Tendencies are much like Traditions but for Scout subclasses. The rules governing them are slightly different (scouts can have more than one tendency) but the concept is the same.

Bandaging is a scout skill which heals 1pt to the location, usable once per wound but otherwise at will. The damage returns if the bandage is removed before the wound is otherwise healed. It would indeed stack with the Shadow Company benefit.

Wardpact with trees plants and animals isn't really overpowered but you'd end up paying a lot for it. Iirc Neutrality to plants and animals costs Druids about 150pts in all and is in some ways more limited (with a Wardpact you can still fight them if you want to, by not announcing the wardpact). Bottom line is how worried you are about plants and animals, really. I'd apply for them separately as one liners (with the justification "because I'm an Alfar") and see what happens.

As Giles says, have a go with a bow before diving in as it's a pretty expensive (£s not points) experiment.


J

[Ferro]

No worries about the bow, whilst I'm a rubbish shot, I find them really fun to use so am more than happy to practice. Plus I've always wanted a bow, this just gives me an excuse to buy one

So in short, I may want to reconsider my multi class options and do the above as a tradition rather than in place of a social guild slot.

Thanks for the help

[Ferro]

No worries about the bow, whilst I'm a rubbish shot, I find them really fun to use so am more than happy to practice. Plus I've always wanted a bow, this just gives me an excuse to buy one

So in short, I may want to reconsider my multi class options and do the above as a tradition rather than in place of a social guild slot.

Thanks for the help

[MattWest]

I assume you have considered the Table 1 ability "Naturally Suspicious"? If not, have a look at it. You can't combine it with a points-app based on giving up your social guild slot unless the points-app mentions Naturally Suspicious (which would cost extra points).

Alternatively, if you have a reasonable in-character reason for wanting to leave Knights of the Land, the Lord Knight (Gimly, played by Richard Fromant) will probably give you permission to leave immediately. Alternatively, 3 months' notice. In the meantime you can join some other guild if you want to, and only battleboard that other social guild's benefits (not KOTL's), but be bound by the restrictions of both.

For a points-app for crossing wardings, as you will know Alfar have a "natural environment" (in your case fields, meadows etc.) in which they leave no tracks. This could be a reasonable basis for a limited-use Ghost-type ability. One thing you might consider is combining it with your Draw on Earthpower ability, so that you can buy (say) "Hedgehog" innates of "in my own natural environment (as Alfar), where (being an Alfar) I leave no tracks, I may use a Draw on Earthpower innate (i.e. using up a Draw on EP innate), with the normal 30 seconds' preparation time for such, to cross a warding as per the Ghost ability from the Scout tables". Doing so would use up an innate of Ghost and an innate of (say) Hedgehog, and it would take 30 seconds' calm preparation, so these innates should be very doable as part of a non-standard Tradition ("Wilderness Nature Tradition"?). Remember that crossing a warding in one direction can be very dangerous if you don't have another innate to cross back in the opposite direction or if you need 30 seconds to do so safely...

If you want a collection of kooky abilities you should really have a look at the Elder Fey multi-race which you can start buying immediately and is only 380 points to level 6 for you. However remember what has been said upthread about being able to buy Druidic Heal innates for 36 points each as Alfar. One Elder Fey ability you might be interested in is the ability to take double effect from the basic unenhanced Druidic Heal - which is better than the similar ability all Alfar can buy. Is your character goodly, evil or neither?

I wonder if this would work:-

Tradition:- Wilderness Nature Tradition
This is a non-standard warrior tradition and uses my tradition slot.

Benefits/Drawbacks:-
(1) I gain a free multiclass slot at 8th+0pts which I may only use to multiclass Archer. However if I use this slot to multiclass archer then up to and including 6th level Archer my maximum damage with shots at 10' range or more is 1 grade less than the highest Table I can currently buy from (though not less than Quin). Thus on T8 it would be Seven, T9 Eight and so on. My points-app for 7th/8th level Archer must mention this restriction.
(2) I gain 1/day innate of "Hedgehog":- in my own natural environment (as Alfar), where (being an Alfar) I leave no tracks, I may use a Draw on Earthpower innate (i.e. using up a Draw on EP innate), with the normal 30 seconds' preparation time, to cross a warding as per the Ghost ability from the Scout tables. I may buy further innates of Hedgehog for [30] points each, capped at, in total including the 1st innate, a max. of 1 innate per 2 Tables I can buy from.
(3) I gain 1/day innate of "Natural Healing":- in my own natural environment (as Alfar), when using (and using up) a normal Draw on Earthpower innate, with the normal 30 seconds' preparation time for such, instead of casting one standard evocation I may cast up to (4? 5? 6?) EP worth of basic and/or advanced evocations from the Healing field. (This may be more than one evocation at once, with a total value of ___ EP.) I may buy further innates of Natural Healing for [20] points each, capped at, in total including the 1st innate, a max. of 1 innate per 2 Tables I can buy from.
(4) Due to being a bit of a loner and more interested in trees than in politics or soldiering I may only be in 1 social guild and 1 political guild, neither of which may be militarily based and organised (as defined for Soldier Tradition). However my professional guild membership is unaffected.

May only enter the Druid bracket.

(Do NOT then take Chosen Field Healing if you MC Druid or Forest Guardian, as it is wasteful/duplication of power.)

[Ferro]

Thanks Matt, really interesting.

I assume points 4 & only entering the druid bracket would be my 'losses and restrictions' for asking for such things else I'm gaining too much and not losing/restricting enough to compensate?

I thought I could only have one of each guild type at a time??

So Druidic heal worth 36pts would be better than asking for bandaging or natural brews 'x'/day?

Just to clarify (don't have druid book to hand), inates/ep/Druidic heal all come from the same power pool so I'd be choosing Druidic heal *or* hedgehog etc? But limiting each to 'x'/day. So in one respect, it's worse than bandages and natural brews but it would make me choose carefully.

How likely am I to play dungeons in my *own* natural environment rather than *a* natural environment? That seems quite harsh to limit it only to meadows..?

[MattWest]

You can be in twenty guilds at once (or more), but you can only battleboard 1 social, 1 political and 1 professional guild's benefits at a time.

Druidic Heal at 36 points a pop is simpler than asking for banadaging and natural brews, and reasonably good value if combined with a x2 effect ability (whether bought as Alfar or as Elder Fey), especially considering you don't have human lifepoints so you don't really need Total Heals. There is great merit in keeping things simple as far as possible, which I often overlook. Labyrinthe is quite a complicated game as it is, so try to keep things simple and you will have a better chance of knowing where you are with stuff.

From memory I think the advanced Healing field evocations include one that makes basically natural brews (will check shortly), which is the point of my "Natural Healing" idea. But looking at it as points-for-lifepoints'-worth-of-healing, you may not be getting great value out of the Tradition I've drafted, it's just that it seems a logical way of getting the flavour you want.

My version of the Tradition is based on the fact that as Alfar you can buy further innates of Draw on Earthpower for 80 points each. Your character might have, for instance, 5 Draw on Earthpowers, 3 Hedgehogs, 3 Natural Healings and 6 innate Druidic Heals. (This would be a LOT of points:- around 750 or so including the Tradition?.) The Druidic Heals would be a completely separate resource than the Draw on EPs, and could be used in a non-natural environment, unlike the Draw on EPs. Of course a Draw on EP could be used, in your natural environment, for further Druidic Heals, but it's an expensive way of getting them (over twice the cost of Druidic Heal innates). Using a Hedgehog or Natural Healing would obviously use up your Draw on EPs. Does this make sense? So basically you would have 2 kinds of resource (Draw on EPs and Druidic Heals), with a limited ability to manipulate the Draw on EP resource into doing different things. If this is too complicated for you then do something simpler...

I think the abilities I have drafted are justified because normally Draw on EP is, in practice, 80 points for a Druidic Heal in own environment only, or maybe a Resist Fire, whereas for 96 points you could have both an innate Resist Fire and an innate Druidic Heal (so 2 innates not 1), both useable in any environment. So a points-app to make your Draw on EP innate more practically useful (and slightly more versatile than it already is) seems worthwhile. Although in theory the Draw on EP innate is maybe the most versatile innate in the game, apart from possibly True Believer, which is why it is so expensive:- when you use it you can choose out of all the basic Druid evocations, even Call Lightning or Animate Greater Treant. Of course that might make the GSM reluctant to make it even more versatile, perhaps he might think effectively making you a better druid than a druid, hence the Druid bracket restriction. (Could even be changed to "now counts as being in the Druid bracket", so you are no longer bracket-pure.)

Did you realise that you can use Draw on EP for a Control Animal evocation or maybe Invisibility to Animals or Speak to Animals? The only problem is it takes 30 seconds to do. Now I reckon it would be a relatively trivial points-app to say:- "When I use a Draw on EP innate in its standard form to cast a basic Evocation, my preparation time for using the Draw on EP innate now changes to 5 seconds per Earthpower point of the basic evocation(s) I use it to cast; non-standard uses of Draw on EP are unaffected by this". Thus it would be 5 seconds for Control Animal, 15 seconds for a Druidic Heal but 40 seconds for a Call Lightning. This would mean you could do a Control Animal in 5 seconds - much more useful in a tight spot (if, as I recall, Control Animal is 1 EP). Then you would probably not want to spend points on neutrality/wardpacts versus animals, if you had enough Draw on EP innates to be able to waste an 80-point innate on a Control Animal in an emergency, and are planning to multiclass Forest Guardian anyway.

You are right that the natural environment restriction for Draw on EP is very restrictive, and could be very frustrating if you play, for instance, Caves dungeons. [But you're not allowed a handbow on a Caves dungeon, only a crossbow, so do you really want to buy both?] But sometimes the ref may narrate you as being in an overland environment even if you are physically in the Caves (though not likely to be an open field, because... cave walls...), or vice versa. Generally you will be in several different environments during an adventure and if it's an overland I think it's a fair bet you will be in a meadow some of the time so use your abilities when you can!

If you multirace Elder Fey maybe you could points-app Level 7, Level 8 of the multirace as (among other things) expanding your natural environment for the purpose of your basic Draw on Earthpower and other Alfar racial abilities and for any funky innates from a Tradition. So that it could include all natural environments for instance, even natural caverns. Or maybe start with all natural overland environments, then develop it to all natural environments, and perhaps even also all of Primus or eventually lose the natural environments restriction at very high points, perhaps a limited number of uses per day of that. "Because I am a natural environment..." (Clearly multirace territory.)

Bear in mind there is no guarantee that the GSM will agree that my idea is reasonable!

[MattWest]

PS here's another idea. In fact this is better than my other ideas. Simpler and more likely to be passed I think.

Points-App "Finding Nature":- I now have a non-standard evocations list as per the Druid ability Finding Faith [published only on the website here], which applies to my use of the Draw on Earthpower ability and other Alfar racial abilities (including the ability to buy innates of evocations), replacing the basic Druid list for all purposes for me. I must satisfy the normal real-world administrative requirements for a Finding Faith list. This is considered to use up my first Talisman slot, which [if memory serves] as an Alfar I would normally be entitled to choose on Table 9, and if I multiclass (or path) into the Druid bracket, this is also my evocations list for my Druid-bracket abilities.

To my mind this ability should be passed on its own without any great fuss, for maybe 60 points, or cheaply as part of a Tradition.

You could then make a Healing-field-based "Structured Faith list" which would include the Druidic evocations that make/enhance healing potions. You would need to pay 20 monster points for the list, and £1 (assuming you are not exempt from this cost as a paying "Club Supporter").

This would enable you to buy innates of any of the evocations you had chosen for your list, which could include the potion-making/enhancing ones, at something like 12 points per power-rank of the innate (?).

But it's expensive to use a whole 80-point Draw on EP to make a natural brew, so you wouldn't be using Draw on EP for that. Instead you would use standalone innates of natural-brew-or-whatever-the-evocation-is-called.

NB also beware of Total Heal Capping for any innates of Slow Healing (?) and you cannot have Druidic Total Heal as a non-Druid (or non 1st class Druid).

[Ferro]

Matt, whilst I really appreciate the time & effort you've put into replying, I have to make it clear that I'm not interested in becoming a healer or druid - I just want to be self sufficient. Not sure if what you're suggesting goes above and beyond that.

I'll definitely try and digest what you've suggested though, along with the other ideas.

Thanks again

[ChrisAndrews]

My Alfar gets by with some innate druidic heals and x2 effect (From Elder Fey, but Affinity with Nature would also work). With the x2 effect it's more cost effective than the other options.

You can also just pick up utilise earthpower item from guilds or the tables and buy 1 charge items of the various useful evocations - having a selection of these is again much cheaper than spending points on innates that will only come up now or then. There's also a handful of people that can make more exciting things like walk through walls, earth meld and font/well of knowledge.

I've not got it passed myself but I know a couple of people have simply got that Draw on Earthpower works on any published evocation of up to their table in Earthpower, possibly of a single field.

Chris

[MattWest]

I just checked and there isn't a "Natural Brew" evocation as such. I must have been thinking of the Bandage Infusion evocation. There is however Lesser Water of Healing, Greater Water of Healing. I was just trying to think of a logical way to get the potions + bandaging feel that you're after, and yes, if you were to change your racial evocations list to healing-based and then use that for a druid-bracket class as well, you would be on your way to becoming a fairly useful healer. You did say about multiclassing Forest Guardian, and that would mean getting LOTS of life-points, and being a druid-type...

[Ferro]

I've reread both en guarde & evolution.

I can 'kinda' get what I'm looking for with the T7 abilities Enhanced Survival (allows ranger to battle board x3 temp 6tblp potions free of charge) and Monk Loc Healing (as per monk specialist skill at 1/3tblp (not entirely sure how much this heals me for or how often I can use it).

And I think I'd rather get Affinity With Nature (is this use at will or /day?) than go Elder Fey for now.

I was hoping for more in terms of self sufficiency but I assume it would cost a lot seeing what tables those abilities are on.. But they are the kinds of thing I meant, not gaining actual heals to be a step in / back up healer.


I do like the wardpacts and ghost abilities still though.......

[ChrisAndrews]

And I think I'd rather get Affinity With Nature (is this use at will or /day?) than go Elder Fey for now.

It's at will.

Monk Loc Healing gives you a pool of healing equal to 1/3 of your TBLP. It only cures locational life and you don't need to use it all at once - you could heal yourself 6 life to one arm and then wait for a bit before healing 3 life to a leg. It takes 1 second per 2 points of healing and you can't use it in a fight. So if you're in 60 life you'd have 20 monk loc to use in the day and once you've used it it's gone. It will probably cost you 40pts minimum (Which is what a Monk or Scout can get it for).

There's a scout skill Bandaging as well, which is @ will but only heals 1pt of locational life and you have to have other healing in between using it to a given location. This basically doubles the amount of monk loc you have but still doesn't help with TBLP.

These sort of abilities broadly work out quite pricey and you can't heal yourself in a fight, which along with being cheaper is a big advantage of druidic heal innates.

As for other stuff, I've had natural brew passed as a 15pt innate which will work on any healing potion (But as a druid not an alfar).

I would probably not bother with enhanced survival as you can just buy potions with grulls, especially if you are in guilds where someone will cut you a deal or help you with money.

Chris

[MattWest]

Stacey, I've been thinking about the style of character you seem to want and the sorts of package you get from multi-classing Forest Guardian and from other parts of the Labyrinthe system, and this is my intuition talking here.

I don't think you're actually going to want to multi-class Forest Guardian at all. If a Ranger multi-classes Forest Guardian, they end up with one of the best Life Points totals of any character in the system (not quite the best but very good). This is because they can buy Staminas as a Warrior Subclass and Extra Levels of Life as a Forest Guardian and add them together. They also get to do very powerful things with Earthpower, such as one or more out of teleporting from one tree to another (Forest Shift, Travelling the World Tree), a druidic kind of Rockskin (almost the ultimate in protection from weapon blows - better than armour class), the ability to blind people with the sun's rays, freeze them with winter's touch, meld into the earth, heal them lots... sure, you don't get all these powers, but you could get several of them. And from what you say, I don't think you really want any of that stuff.

You don't want the highest damage grades, the best defences, the best life-points. You don't want to be a bracket-pure BattleMaster with all the top warrior abilities and damage reductions. You want bandaging, you want curative potions, you want healing salves, you want to sneak among the trees, you want to ghost over warding lines, you probably want to hit the giant-sized trollbeast in the legs from behind and run away. I suspect you want to be able to find traps that have been set for animals and disarm them (maybe even free animals from some of the traps in the process?). Basically, I reckon you want to be a scout.

You can get more than enough druidic ability for the things you actually want from a combination of just being an Alfar and multi-racing Elder Fey. You don't need to enter the Druid bracket for that. You don't need to multiclass Forest Guardian. You can get loads of earthpower-type abilities racially, and the only reason you would need to multi-class Forest Guardian would be if you wanted to combine really powerful druid abilities and huge physical toughness (loads of life points). But from your description of the sort of character you want, that's not it. And if you want scout-type stuff like Ghost, you're going to find it easier to get if you actually multiclass Scout.

Well, that's my guess anyway.

[Ferro]

With Ryan's help (bless his patience!) I have what I want, just need to get it written properly and passed now.

Matt, again, I really appreciate your input but I really don't want to play a scout.

I want to be self reliant, I've played games before where I'm forced into a certain playstyle just because of one ability. I want to play my character the way I want to, not be forced into a certain role because I'm the only person with a heal (however rubbish it is).

I don't want to be a healer. I don't want to be a tank. I don't want to be glass cannon wizard doing insane amounts of damage. I don't want to be a scout sneaking around disarming traps - I played a pathfinder and I **much** prefer my ranger.

So what do I want to bring to a party? I want to be a melee fighter who doesn't get squished with one hit, can stand her own but doesn't necessarily make the best tank. I want utility, the ability to look after myself (role play wise, I'd even sacrifice taking benefit from others healing to look after myself). So, things like tracking, a bit of buffing, some healing, some crowd control, some non standard stuff like a ranger crossing a warding to mix things up a bit is exactly what I want. If I get a ton of life in the process, awesome - gives me extra survivability but just because hit points and armour class are not my driving factor doesn't mean I shouldn't play it, surely.

I want to be a hybrid, so ranger going forest guardian sounds good to me - just because I "can" get some of the best in game going one route doesn't mean it's the only route. I'm playing her for roleplay and to shape the character I'd like to play, not to be the "best" at something. I want a bit of everything, not all of one thing.

[MattWest]

Well that's pretty solid reasoning, sounds like you know what you want out of the character and have a good idea how to get it from the system now. I have to work on condensing my posts a bit but in the meantime if it's helped you to be aware of a few of the options out there that might work for you and to be a bit surer of your ground then that's the objective! Hope no-one found my verbal diarrhoea excessive/patronising!