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> Rules Changes, Should they be discussed before implementation?
ethuil
post Jan 25 2011, 05:37 PM
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Perhaps a compromise would work better:

Let's say for example the GSM/CMT want to do an overhaul of the warrior book. Rather than posting up a huge and detailed discussion of what changes they're planning to make in detail, it'd be nice to get an "official" discussion post. So instead of actively discussing what exact modifications they're planning, there is at least the option to say "what do people think of the 2nd class warrior buy as" or whatever might be the issue.

That way not only can the GSM/CMT glean what the playerbase think, we all get to discuss things and feel that we're a part of changes - however fundamentally the process for changing the system is not changed. I suppose one could argue that this happens already where we discuss things and the GSM goes away and edits things - but I think seeing that a discussion is started from an official standpoint reassures people that it's being considered.

I am of course aware that this would be quite time consuming. I just think it's an option for compromise smile.gif


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soulblood
post Jan 25 2011, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE(JEB @ Jan 25 2011, 02:21 PM) *
Lets be honest, what good would it do if someone that doesn't ref, doesn't a-ref, doesn't monster and rarely plays had a say in the discussions that affected all those that do??

I personally would be quite upset if someone like that had any sway over the system that I ref, a-ref and play in.

Just my 2p.

Jo - Clubmember.


If your not of the clique you don't count!!!! Every member should have a right to a say, to openly state otherwise really is rather rude and demeaning. Even if that say doesn't make a difference they still have a right to it.

Personally I agree that in the end it should always be down to one person to make a decision, with a group to advise and bounce ideas off beforehand is even better.

When something is changed someone is always worse off, so you will always have unhappy people, but if you are upfront and give a reason why a change is needed along side the change, that will give a chance for the unwashed masses to understand why this is happening.

Matt - one who Jo wishes not to have a voice.


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Matt Wolfe

The Union of Evil has placed a motion before the membership asking if its fair that: "if all that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing, then why must their members work a full week?"

Brain: Pinky, Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: Well, I think so, Brain, but if Jimmy cracks corn, and no one cares, why does he keep doing it?
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JulianW
post Jan 25 2011, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE(abyatt @ Jan 25 2011, 04:52 PM) *
sorting though the noise on here:

(v) these forums are open for all club members to discuss the game and the system and would encourage you to continue to do so, for system updates or otherwise. We may not reply, but we do look to read as many of the posts as possible.
There may be a small delay in answering e-mails to the bookings address over the next few days, please bear with us as you will receive replies, even if they are during late US time.

Anderw Byatt


There's a key point here.

(v) works fine so long as the club members know a change is being considered.

I think what most folks here are asking for is advance warning a change is being considered and a chance to state their case before a decision is made.

We may not get a vote in the final decision, but would like a chance to point out just how much it would screw our favourite character and make us feel sad.

Julian



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Kirsty
post Jan 25 2011, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE(JulianW @ Jan 25 2011, 06:41 PM) *
There's a key point here.

(v) works fine so long as the club members know a change is being considered.

I think what most folks here are asking for is advance warning a change is being considered and a chance to state their case before a decision is made.

We may not get a vote in the final decision, but would like a chance to point out just how much it would screw our favourite character and make us feel sad.

Julian


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Stuart
post Jan 25 2011, 06:44 PM
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It might be nice if people thought carefully before commenting on those who spend a large slice of their lives not only making sure we get to continue our hobby, but also going out of their way to improve the experience for us. It's a pretty thankless task most of the time, I'm guessing.

I feel some of the comments here are unwarranted.

Stuart
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Jan
post Jan 25 2011, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Jan 25 2011, 06:44 PM) *
It might be nice if people thought carefully before commenting on those who spend a large slice of their lives not only making sure we get to continue our hobby, but also going out of their way to improve the experience for us. It's a pretty thankless task most of the time, I'm guessing.

I feel some of the comments here are unwarranted.

Stuart


Very much this.

It surprises me sometimes how much ownership clubmembers feel they have. Running Labyrinthe is massively stressful and always involves not giving one faction or another opposing one what they want. The tactics and strategies used by club members should recognise that the people who provide their time, regardless of reward levels , should be treated as people and not as objectives or targets.

I left managing Labyrinthe (twice) because of this relentless approach and perhaps it simply isnt pointed out enough how stressful it can be.

Jan


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abyatt
post Jan 25 2011, 06:59 PM
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can't quite get the quotes to work well here, so appologies for the poor formatting


".........Perhaps a compromise would work better:
Let's say for example the GSM/CMT want to do an overhaul of the warrior book. Rather than posting up a huge and detailed discussion of what changes they're planning to make in detail, it'd be nice to get an "official" discussion post. So instead of actively discussing what exact modifications they're planning, there is at least the option to say "what do people think of the 2nd class warrior buy as" or whatever might be the issue......"

".......(v) works fine so long as the club members know a change is being considered."

Both reasonable points, and whilst I'm sure that most people don't actually want any major overhauls (perhaps I'm wrong, but that's cerrtainly the gist of many of the messages) then perhaps as we look to reformat and republish any of the books (whether for kindle publishing or otherwise) then we can start a thread saying what the next book is and invite comments on what bits people would like to have looked at, opinions, points of view etc.
Obviously no guarantee that it would mean that every point would be addressed as in virtually all cases there will be opposing opinions.



".....Personally I agree that in the end it should always be down to one person to make a decision, with a group to advise and bounce ideas off beforehand is even better."

And we agree with this. If we do look to implement the above then the GSM will still be free to bounce their ideas and any suggestions from the forums around with a small group of people if he wishes

".....If your not of the clique you don't count!!!!"
are a group of Senior Referees really a clique? I'm not so sure really



"....Even if that say doesn't make a difference they still have a right to it."

I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree, which is why we have only ever deleted very few posts from these forums ever (and then only when we felt that they went so far against the rules of these forums that it was necessary to do so). We're happy for people do disagree with the decisions that the CMT and/or GSM make, and to voice that disagreement on these forums or personally when done so in a reasonable and respectful manner.

Andrew Byatt


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post Jan 25 2011, 07:21 PM
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I'm pretty new to the system and don't consider myself at all qualified to give any insight into the implications of a system-wide rules change.

What I do know is that if my favourite character were to be considerably impacted by a change, I'd feel better about it if there was a bit of a "grieving period" to work out exactly what effect it was going to have and try and do some damage control. In some instances, grieving is exactly what it is, and when that's the case then a bit of time can make a big difference.
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PhilB
post Jan 25 2011, 08:06 PM
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wow, what a lot of posts smile.gif

Being more serious, I can fully understand and appreciate why there have been so many posts on this subject. How the system is managed is, for many people, one of the core elements of their enjoyment of Labyrinthe, and is therefore something that many will have strong opinions on. This is a good thing... I would be a lot more upset if no one cared.

The first point I would like to make is that the CMT are not the enemy - it's our hobby as well. We all try our very hardest to make Labyrinthe the best that it can possibly be. Often, choices and decisions that we make will upset some clubmembers. Inevitably, some of our choices will be the wrong ones (hopefully not very many smile.gif). Always our choices are made, in our opinions, for the betterment of all... hopefully, people can trust that our motives are good, and approach us accordingly....

More specifically, I agree that major changes to the system should be posted up with an 'activate' date. As many people have said, this will give good time for people to assess the impact that said changes may have on their characters and alter/adjust/grieve appropriately. I will try to avoid any surprise or sneak changes...

This will also give clubmembers the opportunity to discuss proposed changes before they happen. If a clubmember feels quite strongly about a proposed change/alteration (either adding to or limiting the system) they should feel free to start a thread - useful things can come out of discussions like that.

The only caveat I would make to the above is the case of clarifications. Sometimes it is the case that a large proportion of the club are using an ability in a certain way, which is the way I feel it should be used - leaving a small percentage using said ability in a different way... this is a case for clarification and really must be as and when these issues come to light.

Ultimately, the role of GSM (and system decisions) should be one person’s responsibility. I strongly believe that a game system doesn’t run well by committee. Having said that, I do try and read most of the threads on the boards - specifically looking at ones that are system related. I am not going to do anything as foolish as promise to accommodate everyone's viewpoint in all changes - such a promise would be impossible to keep! I will, however, read them.

With respects to discussing potential changes with other people, I believe that this principle is a good one. It is something that has happened a number of times in the past, and will continue to happen in the future. I am unwilling to create a ‘hard and fast’ rule as to which specific group I will discuss things with beforehand – I think that the subject that I am considering will impact who is likely to be best to bounce idea’s off. The vast majority of potential changes will, however, be discussed with others (sometimes a small select group, sometimes the Senior ref’s as a group, sometimes more widely in the club) before I come to a conclusion and post it up as a ‘proposed change’ for potential clubwide discussion.

Having said the above, it is my intention to minimise changes to the core rules. There will, over the next few months, be some changes (as people have said, a new GSM will always push the game in a certain direction… this is both inevitable and, I believe, a refreshing and good thing for the system if done with care), but as a general rule I don’t want to be ‘tweaking’ all the time.

For changes that do impact a character, it is not appropriate for me to make a sweeping generalised rule on how their issues can be dealt with (respend/alteration/rewrite etc). However, I would say ‘please talk to me…’ I don’t think that I am that unreasonable (or that unapproachable).

Hope that this post at least helps clubmembers to understand my thoughts – anyone should feel free to catch me at the caves if they want to discuss this (or anything else) further…
Phil.


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soulblood
post Jan 25 2011, 08:17 PM
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Edit: Removed by self as Phil's comments clear everything up prefectly for me.


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Matt Wolfe

The Union of Evil has placed a motion before the membership asking if its fair that: "if all that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing, then why must their members work a full week?"

Brain: Pinky, Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: Well, I think so, Brain, but if Jimmy cracks corn, and no one cares, why does he keep doing it?
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JackFlashblade
post Jan 25 2011, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE(soulblood @ Jan 25 2011, 08:17 PM) *
Edit: Removed by self as Phil's comments clear everything up prefectly for me.


Hi Matt,

I dont mean to be rude, mate, but your posts make you look like a massive _ _ _ _.

Chris
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soulblood
post Jan 25 2011, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE(JackFlashblade @ Jan 25 2011, 08:28 PM) *
Hi Matt,

I dont mean to be rude, mate, but your posts make you look like a massive _ _ _ _.

Chris


Your point is taken.

My reply to a percieved offensive comment, was aimed at the comment itself, and I in no way intended to be rude to Jo. It was probably unintended, but I needed to say something about that comment.

Your comment however is personal, and rude.


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Matt Wolfe

The Union of Evil has placed a motion before the membership asking if its fair that: "if all that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing, then why must their members work a full week?"

Brain: Pinky, Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: Well, I think so, Brain, but if Jimmy cracks corn, and no one cares, why does he keep doing it?
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Craigus17
post Jan 25 2011, 08:40 PM
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I was trying not to post on this topic but there's nothing on the telly so I'm posting, but I'll keep it brief. Please be aware that this isn't meant as argument or contest to any individual or their opinion, this is simply a discription of my opinion.

The club is not a democracy, and really the players are customers. I don't feel any more entitled to input on the running of Labyrinthe than my customers at work have any right to tell me how my shop should be run. As a relatively new player (having started coming in 2009 compared to some people's 1980-something) I feel happy enough being told what to do and when, since I accept whole heartedly that the people doing the telling know better than I do.

Again, please remember this is not intended as an argument or contest and is just my opinion, and I am not known for my English skills so please take this with a pinch of salt as I may not have explained myself as well as I could have and you may not have read this the way I intended you to.


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SiDeards
post Jan 25 2011, 08:57 PM
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Gotta agree with Craig 100% there...

Si
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Kirsty
post Jan 25 2011, 08:59 PM
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Thank you Phil... it's like I said earlier... we just wanna be 'in the loop'. We're not asking for responsibility or sway, just to be kept informed of stuff.

Well... I am anyway!


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DanM
post Jan 25 2011, 10:47 PM
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Fantastic News

I look forward to seeing this in practice


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aaaarrrggh
post Jan 26 2011, 12:02 AM
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QUOTE(DanM @ Jan 25 2011, 04:05 PM) *
Some people get defensive even when no accusation has been made.


Seriously, from you, oh the irony.


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