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> Noob Feedback, Making the system easier for the outsider
Godseed
post Mar 7 2011, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE(Carlo @ Mar 7 2011, 11:33 AM) *
<Ask at the desk.

I remember when I hadn't been coming down for very long and Carlo was dealing and>

I'd just like to clarify, 'dealing' is not something I do.

Damn it. I could've sworn you were the type... wink.gif

QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 7 2011, 11:37 AM) *
I disagree. The handbook is not simple from where I sit.

It's not just you - this is a comment which I've heard from at least half a dozen new arrivals. The handbook seems simple to those of us who know how complex the rest of the system is. It does not seem simple to someone coming at it from a standing start.


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Also Sargon "Where have all the cakes gone?" of Cloud Way; Retterchen, the faerie mystic; and J.B., an unspecified scout subclass.
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Craigus17
post Mar 7 2011, 12:01 PM
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QUOTE(Carlo @ Mar 7 2011, 11:33 AM) *
I'd just like to clarify, 'dealing' is not something I do.


Lol sorry was supposed to say 'desking'. iPhone predictive text clearly thinks badly of Carlo.

QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 7 2011, 11:37 AM) *
I disagree. The handbook is not simple from where I sit.


But it does have all the information that you are asking for. There is enough in there to play several different classes to 8th level (maybe about 8th + 100ish at a push). What you seem to be asking for is a republished version of information that is already published and available because you don't like the current format.

In my experience NOBODY takes objection to people asking questions. Nobody. As someone who was not that long ago pretty much in your exact situation, you really should trust me on that. There are players who have been coming since the late 80's who will still ocassionally ask questions, and Ben Zeally averages a new question about every 12 seconds.

It does confuse me sometimes that people are completely comfortable with walking around a cave in costume, holding a foam and latex weapon and shouting 'firedart!' at someone dressed in smelly damp armoury gear holding a foam and gaffa tape weapon, yet asking people questions takes them out of their comfort zone...


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Godseed
post Mar 7 2011, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE(Craigus17 @ Mar 7 2011, 12:01 PM) *
But it does have all the information that you are asking for. There is enough in there to play several different classes to 8th level (maybe about 8th + 100ish at a push). What you seem to be asking for is a republished version of information that is already published and available because you don't like the current format.

It's not a question of liking or disliking; the current format needs work. This is not just my opinion, it is clearly shared by quite a lot of new players.

QUOTE(Craigus17 @ Mar 7 2011, 12:01 PM) *
In my experience NOBODY takes objection to people asking questions. Nobody. As someone who was not that long ago pretty much in your exact situation, you really should trust me on that. There are players who have been coming since the late 80's who will still ocassionally ask questions, and Ben Zeally averages a new question about every 12 seconds.

It does confuse me sometimes that people are completely comfortable with walking around a cave in costume, holding a foam and latex weapon and shouting 'firedart!' at someone dressed in smelly damp armoury gear holding a foam and gaffa tape weapon, yet asking people questions takes them out of their comfort zone...

Zealley. I think the issue is not "will person x mind if I ask this question", but "I'm starting to feel embarrassed/like a twit/PITA for asking so many questions all the time". I don't suffer from this because I'm not quite human (at least in empathic terms), which is why I ask so many questions. wink.gif


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Also Sargon "Where have all the cakes gone?" of Cloud Way; Retterchen, the faerie mystic; and J.B., an unspecified scout subclass.
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LucyH
post Mar 7 2011, 12:18 PM
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Guys, before you demand a new basic handbook, please consider the following:

1) Who is going to write it?
2) When are they going to write it.

Labyrinthe isn't a big games company and it doesn't have a staff of writers to give the job to. All of the Laby publications have been written, over the years by people who are doing it for free in their spare time whilst holding down a real-world job. So, whilst you can say "the curent format needs work" and demand a new rulebook all you like, which poor person do you expect to give up 100-odd hours of his free time to do the re-write?

Lucy


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Godseed
post Mar 7 2011, 12:39 PM
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Er, I would. I have to get the wiki up first, though, which may manage to render this unnecessary...


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Ben
-==-
AKA Bane: just another Human Warrior: 1512pts post 8th
Also Sargon "Where have all the cakes gone?" of Cloud Way; Retterchen, the faerie mystic; and J.B., an unspecified scout subclass.
On an extended break from active caving while rebuilding a house, but still unable to resist delicious yellow paper speculation.
Standard disclaimer applies.
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BBB
post Mar 7 2011, 12:49 PM
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First off,

It's always good to get comments from new players. As more experienced players its hard to see what a new player might most need. We can only try and imagine.

Don't let any of our answers put you off making observations that only a newer player can make (even if our responses might come across as curt or defensive smile.gif )

I think part of the problem is that the system is vast.

There used to be ways to hold back players and get them into the game simply.

Firstly, it used to take months to get to 8th level, That is a thing of the dim and distant past, you no longer even need to stat at 1st level

Secondly, basic players were pretty much actively discouraged from playing anything not in the basic Handbook and most were limited to the very most basic of:

Warrior
Warrior Priest
Scout
Wizard
and occasionally Pure Priest

You basically weren't given much of a choice from those because those form the original core of the system and the biases within the system still revolve around those.

As a referee, if I'm writing a basic adventure I will try and restrict myself to using only affects, spells, miracles and so forth contained within the Handbook so that is all you need to know.

As it happens the Handbook could probably do with a tweak. Its current edition is just over 5 years old now and things such as referring to dungeons as Triple Lengths is out of date.

If you have a solid list of things that you wish you'd known that aren't in the introductory pages I'm sure the CMT would love to hear for when its next tweaked.

Rules aren't always where they might logically be expected, often for historic reasons of how the game evolved and on top of that there are surprising amounts of the system, that whilst not actual rules, are relatively common knowledge but aren't actually written down, they are learnt as you go along.

Stuff such as things you need to bring, I think is pretty well covered, re-itering that its a cave, its dark and that bringing a light source makes sense is not something we as regular players might think of, used to as we are at just buying glow sticks as and when needed. But in hindsight is something that would be handy to mention.

BBB


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BBB
post Mar 7 2011, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE(Ezrekia @ Mar 6 2011, 08:21 PM) *
Okay, I can see that. In which case, can I suggest that you enclose a brief paragraph to explain this if/when you put the beginners' guide together? I feel sure I won't be the first or last to ponder it.


There used to be beginners guides, they got amalgamated into the Basic Handbook (which I believe is both freely downloadable and free to new players)

BBB


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BBB
post Mar 7 2011, 12:55 PM
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QUOTE(nerulean @ Mar 6 2011, 09:43 PM) *
Which kind of goes along with Sally's point that it can be difficult for people to find information in the system when they don't know all the books inside and out. wink.gif

The books really do feel like they need a lot of insider knowledge to get to grips with, which is partly to do with the cross referencing, partly the fact that each book has slightly different information in the indices, and partly that there isn't a clear central collection of the information that spans the whole of the system, since the handbook is mixed up with stuff for brand new players.


Back in my day they didn't have indices. I spent an awful long time adding the indices with handy cross referencing for cost and Table smile.gif

Whilst the publications have increased since the original 8? pages of A4 Post 8th abilities they have actually got easier to navigate of late (no really they have!)

BBB


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BBB
post Mar 7 2011, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE(Godseed @ Mar 7 2011, 09:52 AM) *
Guys: while it does work, "you should ask someone in the know" is not a great rebuttal to an issue of the form "information on x is not as easy to find as it should be".


Nope, suggestions how to make it easier would be far more helpful. smile.gif

Each iteration of republication aims to both improve the system and make it easier to get round. Complaints and suggestions do get listened to and ideas to make things easier, especially for new players will be gratefully received by all.

However, as has been pointed out, its worth remembering that someone needs to take time to do the work so there will be trade offs between what can be achieved and what we would ultimately like to achieve.

Again its the remarkable fluidity and evolution of the game that adds to these difficulties.

BBB


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Godseed
post Mar 7 2011, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE(BBB @ Mar 7 2011, 12:55 PM) *
Back in my day they didn't have indices. I spent an awful long time adding the indices with handy cross referencing for cost and Table smile.gif

Full points for you, sir!

QUOTE(BBB @ Mar 7 2011, 12:55 PM) *

Whilst the publications have increased since the original 8? pages of A4 Post 8th abilities they have actually got easier to navigate of late (no really they have!)

Excellent, then there's momentum for continued improvement wink.gif


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Ben
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AKA Bane: just another Human Warrior: 1512pts post 8th
Also Sargon "Where have all the cakes gone?" of Cloud Way; Retterchen, the faerie mystic; and J.B., an unspecified scout subclass.
On an extended break from active caving while rebuilding a house, but still unable to resist delicious yellow paper speculation.
Standard disclaimer applies.
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Jan
post Mar 7 2011, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE(Jasper @ Mar 7 2011, 11:28 AM) *
monolithic (cyclopean? noneuclidean?) game system.

J


Tetrascopal? You got a skill for that? smile.gif (in joke)


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BBB
post Mar 7 2011, 01:30 PM
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QUOTE(Godseed @ Mar 7 2011, 12:59 PM) *
Full points for you, sir!


Yeah, I got fed up of having to track down abilities I knew what they did but just wanted to get signed on my card and get the cost correct whilst the Referee looked at me disappointingly in the carpark of J10 as the brief was getting underway and I was completely inexplicably running late... wub.gif

BBB


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Jasper
post Mar 7 2011, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE(Jan @ Mar 7 2011, 01:21 PM) *
Tetrascopal? You got a skill for that? smile.gif (in joke)



This game system is Pre-Tetrascopal. Proto-Tetrascopal at best.
Both of which I have at tier 3, hanging from Tetrascopal Studies.

smile.gif
J


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nerulean
post Mar 7 2011, 02:35 PM
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There was mention of the newbies guide being resurrected at the Forum at the Anniversary, and I think that's a great idea. I'm willing to volunteer my time and (in)experience to the endeavour. It would probably benefit the Handbook too, making information that spans the whole system easier to find without getting lost in class listings and suchlike - questions like which similar benefits from which sources stack with each other that come up on the forum once a month, for example.


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PhilB
post Mar 7 2011, 03:06 PM
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This thread is entirely a good thing (from CMT perspective..). On my list of 'things to do' is getting feedback from newer players on how accessable Labyrinthe is - in all its aspects (including the system...)

I have read this thread with a good deal of interest, as it directly relates to one of our 'to do' CMT objectives. I feel that it is very hard for existing 'not so new' (or possibly 'old' smile.gif) players to look at the new players experience objectively. Even harder to figure out what works and what doesnt work for a new clubmember experiencing Laby for the first time.

If new clubmembers experiences suggest that information is tricky to find out, then it is something that I want to address. I intend to resurect/re-write the 'First Steps' - which may well help with this.

Keep the discussion going... its all really helpful smile.gif

Phil.
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LucyH
post Mar 8 2011, 02:43 PM
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Something I remember coming up in discussion a while ago was good "basic" spends for the first few hundred points of the handbook character classes, e.g. for Priests Extra spirits, casting stamina and Discern Associated; for Warriors Life and AC before damage grades - etc etc.

Would it be worth the evil geniuses of the club coming up with a few of these and putting them into a new edition of First Steps? So if newer players don't feel confident about navigating the post 8th tables there is a standard option for them to take that covers the first 250 points.

Lucy


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OxMatt
post Mar 8 2011, 02:51 PM
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Good idea. A few 'example' templates of characters spent at different thresholds would be an excellent thing, I think.

Matt
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dalesuv
post Mar 8 2011, 04:38 PM
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Iv not been around for long (about a year) and found it is much easier to make peace with accepting that it's impossible to know everything, there's loads of fairly basic stuff that completely escapes me. Iv had monsters throw effects at me and stood there looking like a puzzled chimp. As long as you know what you need to play your character and a basic understanding of things likely to happen to it the rest will come sooner or later.


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DanM
post Mar 8 2011, 04:46 PM
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For magic

Learn the difference between xxx Blast and xxx Bolt. (12/2 and 24.4 damage respectively regardless of what xxx is).
Know the names of the spells that can stop you, so you can stop smile.gif
Know the names of the "breaking spells", they are mostly obvious
Know that Bind stops your feet from moving, but only with footwear

Spirits.
Have a rough idea of what undead can do.
Know that Spirit Bolt does 18tblp

These few things should set you right


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Hulud
post Mar 24 2011, 11:33 AM
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I'm inclined to agree with everything Sally has written. We had a brief chat about this very subject at the anniversary both being quite new and all.

two ideas I have seen on this board that strike me as particularly interesting and potentially helpful -

1-sample characters

2-suggested first 250 pts spends


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