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> Guilds and Monsters - Friday discussion, Two problems - one solution
RichardCraig
post Aug 17 2017, 05:52 PM
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As I plan to be drinking on Friday night I thought I'd start the Friday topic to end all topics - Guilds and Monsters a bit early!

To be honest I'm not really going to chat about monsters too much, I think we all know the problems and the various solutions that have been tried to varying degrees of success.

Guilds on the other hand - I think the current guild system isn't really working with guilds constantly fading, creating a new guild a near impossible feat let alone managing to get to a top tier and maintaining it for everybody other than the knights of the land.

I love guilds, they bring a bit of easily accessible variety and allow you to differentiate so that two characters with the same spend can still do different things.

At least thats the idea, and when there are lots of guilds thats possible.

For what ever reason we have found ourselves with an overcomplicated system for the maintenance of guilds that means that only those with 3 tiers get any love and others pop up and fade before they can get a big enough head start on their blow up date.

There are lot of ways that this could be made better, personally some of my favourites are:

- Just revamp the guild system from the bottom up with a clear idea of what you want to achieve (lots of guilds)
- Guilds always have a bottom tier once they have been created
- Have some NPC guilds like the city watch etc
- Allow normal dungeons to contribute to the upkeep of guilds.

However if there is no appetite to change the current guild system then let me suggest a possible solution which could benefit all of the club.

If a set of crew - ref, aref & 2 monsters book on to an event together and the event runs they can nominate a guild to gain the benefit of a guild special.

The benefits of this are manifold - guilds can continue or get to top tier much more easily and there will be a selection of dungeons which will be created with a full set of crew, and who wouldn't book on to one of them safe in the knowledge that you won't be scrabbling round on a Friday to get them to run.

It's an option I'd certainly use as I'd love to get the scouts guild up and running but the mix of points range and skill set makes it almost impossible.

To me this seems like a plan with no drawbacks, if people don't use it as an option then there is no loss but if they do we get a diversity of guilds and a selection of dungeons fully stocked with crew.






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Fionamullin
post Aug 17 2017, 06:01 PM
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Actually the guild special for crew really appeals to me a lot.
So much I'd even suggest dropping the monster number by 1, so ref, a ref, and 1.
But again it needs the ref to mail the points in, or put it on the debrief sheet and I'd say needs to be agreed in advance.
But good idea yay you.


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fatteacher
post Aug 17 2017, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Aug 17 2017, 06:52 PM) *
As I plan to be drinking on Friday night I thought I'd start the Friday topic to end all topics - Guilds and Monsters a bit early!

To be honest I'm not really going to chat about monsters too much, I think we all know the problems and the various solutions that have been tried to varying degrees of success.

Guilds on the other hand - I think the current guild system isn't really working with guilds constantly fading, creating a new guild a near impossible feat let alone managing to get to a top tier and maintaining it for everybody other than the knights of the land.

I love guilds, they bring a bit of easily accessible variety and allow you to differentiate so that two characters with the same spend can still do different things.

At least thats the idea, and when there are lots of guilds thats possible.

For what ever reason we have found ourselves with an overcomplicated system for the maintenance of guilds that means that only those with 3 tiers get any love and others pop up and fade before they can get a big enough head start on their blow up date.

There are lot of ways that this could be made better, personally some of my favourites are:

- Just revamp the guild system from the bottom up with a clear idea of what you want to achieve (lots of guilds)
- Guilds always have a bottom tier once they have been created
- Have some NPC guilds like the city watch etc
- Allow normal dungeons to contribute to the upkeep of guilds.

However if there is no appetite to change the current guild system then let me suggest a possible solution which could benefit all of the club.

If a set of crew - ref, aref & 2 monsters book on to an event together and the event runs they can nominate a guild to gain the benefit of a guild special.

The benefits of this are manifold - guilds can continue or get to top tier much more easily and there will be a selection of dungeons which will be created with a full set of crew, and who wouldn't book on to one of them safe in the knowledge that you won't be scrabbling round on a Friday to get them to run.

It's an option I'd certainly use as I'd love to get the scouts guild up and running but the mix of points range and skill set makes it almost impossible.

To me this seems like a plan with no drawbacks, if people don't use it as an option then there is no loss but if they do we get a diversity of guilds and a selection of dungeons fully stocked with crew.

This all makes decent sense to me
Nice one Richard


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Fionamullin
post Aug 17 2017, 06:18 PM
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Anyway...discuss


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JackFlashblade
post Aug 17 2017, 06:41 PM
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Really good ideas Rich.

I particularly like the bonus if a full crew team books together in advance - if it works it means more crew.

I also like the idea of making it easier / simpler to maintain guilds. a way to extend guilds from normal adventures already exists with the CC reward of guild halls, but I have a feeling these are rarely set - so maybe something in addition, like the old guild point system.

Chris
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Orlock
post Aug 17 2017, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE(Fionamullin @ Aug 17 2017, 07:01 PM) *
Actually the guild special for crew really appeals to me a lot.
So much I'd even suggest dropping the monster number by 1, so ref, a ref, and 1.
But again it needs the ref to mail the points in, or put it on the debrief sheet and I'd say needs to be agreed in advance.
But good idea yay you.


This or could you have an individual Guild Point spend in addtion to your usual monstering rewards and spend these on the Guild of your choice ?

I only say this as I rarely monster with the same people and wouldnt want to be pressured into supporting a Guild I have no vested interest in.

It could be easily added to the debrief and the points allocated at the end of the month ? wouldnt need to be much, only one point a section monstered.


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bendy
post Aug 17 2017, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE(Fionamullin @ Aug 17 2017, 07:18 PM) *
Anyway...discuss


I agree with more guilds but maybe administratively tricky with a huge almanac. Might be easier to have guilds as an online resource only.

Maybe when you get your points you could nominate which guild to give a point to (a guild u had battleboarded) .points could then make up tiers or blow up date. Still mean guild specials best but would mean you could power up guild as you play normally. Monsters could maybe nominate any guild but they get say two points.

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BBB
post Aug 17 2017, 07:36 PM
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There was once a system where GPs could be used to keep a guild running.

You got X GPS a dungeon (I'm ashamed to say I can't remember how many it was) might have been three.

That anyone could earn and use to maintain their guilds. So as long as Guild Members were actually playing dungeons they could trickle in GPs and keep guilds ticking over just by being active.

Then if you wanted you could run a Guild Special which had double the number of GPs available that all automatically went to that one guild and gve you a decent boost to your blow update.

The system was dropped because the new CMT at the time wanted to use a system that they hoped would encourage people to book and play more Guild specials and thus more Guild Dungeons, a pefectly sensible business decision at the time when playing numbers were low.

The issue has always been that a guild needs a critical mass of members at a similar enough level to be able to run fun guild specials.

Most people tend to only have one or two characters in a specific guild with the exception of Knights which is still such a good guild statwise, epscially compared to the otjher Social Guild options that people more than one character in it at different levels so has always been a bit of a surviver guild.

BBB


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Trickyz
post Aug 18 2017, 01:02 PM
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I think Richard's idea is great and it is pretty simple. 1 ref, 1 Aref and 2 monsters book in advance on a dungeon and can make it a guild special rather than it being the players needing it to qualify as a guild special.

Not only would this help with the crewing issue but I can see crews getting together to run a guild special dungeon. The dungeon can be guild themed but open to players who are constructive to the guild but it might not need them to actually be members.

Anyway in any event I think it is a great idea.


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Harrumph
post Aug 18 2017, 03:03 PM
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Did anything happen to the idea that when a really high level character dies some epic event happens?

Could the characters guilds get a boost when a 10k Char dies or something like that?
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sonof
post Aug 18 2017, 03:35 PM
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In a broader Guild discussion.

Benefits are just that benefits. You get them for putting the effort in.
The effort required to keep guilds going has been discussed a lot, but it requires 1 guild special and 2 guild themed (or 2 guild specials) and a guild board to maintain a guild for an entire year, and you probably get a bit of an extension from your guild halls. If a guild can't manage that (and a guild special only requires 6 people on it that are in the guild) the question is should the guild really have advanced tier benefits?

I have no problem with making it easier to maintain guilds, the trade off will be less benefits.

Guilds are the single biggest cultuire of wanting something so not doing much. I accept that there used to be more dungeons but the early days of guilds you needed 4 dungeons a year just to keep a guild going, let alone build up a buffer blow up date. And they need 8 guild members and no one not in the guild.

As for benefits for booking to monster. There have been dozens of attempts to encourage it, and each time a new incentive happens it makes people mosnter a bit for 2-3 months and then fades away.

A far easier options to changing the rules would be get a group of a dozen people. Split into 3 teams of 4. Book 3 dungeons, that gives you a ref, Aref and 2 monsters, and 8 players. Have the dungeons as guild themed to a selection of guilds (or even guild specials if you have enough people). Make sure you use the CP's for guild halls to help. Repeat as needed.

Also these is nothing to stop guild leaders finding a ref and getting an open guild themed dungeon going to help support guilds.

Lee


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trussedfund
post Aug 18 2017, 05:32 PM
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There are a great many benefits to having a lot of guilds. It encourages people to start more characters, makes it easier to moderate your IC behaviour, gives people ideas for plots/dungeons, helps newer people formulate their early spends, adds diversity to the player community, fleshes out the IC world, and if those guilds are stable gives people a platform from which to build or plan future characters.

It seems to me the only problem with having lots of guilds that don't blow up is the perception that people are getting something for nothing. The current system would work if there were far more players than there currently are, but as it is fails the player community because it is difficult to get the dungeons going. I also resent the idea that we have to have some kind of free market guild economy that punishes people with diminishing returns and a ticking clock of catch up admin. This is why I no longer try and run any guilds it was all cat herding and little play.


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RichardCraig
post Aug 18 2017, 05:39 PM
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A very boring answer from lee there ignoring my points about the struggles of getting a guild up to top tier and indeed the fact that the system cannot work as there are too many guilds to realistically have enough dungeons to keep them going.

A quick count of my April 2016 Alamanac put the total number of guilds at: 42

Having system that requires ALL of them to do a guild special in a year is a broken system.

I'd be happy with less benefits but more guilds and variety in those benefits.

And yes I agree incentives come and go and cause a spike for a few months, but rather than saying lets not incentivise perhaps either the right one hasn't been found or the incentive needs to change to match the current needs of the target audience.

Your suggestion of a group of 12 players doesn't really address the fact that its hard enough to get 6 players a ref and some monsters and is basically unrealistic.

So I push back and say:

Give me the negatives of actually trying this.

If it doesn't work then there will be no downside, if it makes just one more dungeon run with full crew or makes one more guild stay alive then it's been a success in my view.

Viva La Revolution!

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Padallen
post Aug 18 2017, 06:36 PM
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A very controversial idea but how about stopping guild from doing more that one guild special a year, or make it have a detrimental effect on the guild!

How many KOTL games have run this year? How many could of been run as different GS with basically the same players and possible even characters!

Maybe its only me, but there seems to be a few old big powerful guilds that overrule any attempt to get new guilds started!!!

*Runs for cover!!*


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miles
post Aug 18 2017, 07:29 PM
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I think big guilds etc like KotL and some churches that are just so established that they should just be permanent, leaving more time for players to work on new guilds etc

Miles


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Kail
post Aug 19 2017, 07:52 AM
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If guild benefits are seen as getting something for nothing why don't we go back to having to buy the tier benefits with points? It also means guilds with only one or two tears are more worth while.

I like Rich's crew idea, gets my vote.

I'm also up for evening out the benefits guilds give, but as always I think you need to start at the top. I still think KotL is over powered compared to all the other guilds. I know they have done loads in the past, but I think they are a big problem with the guild system now as you need a roleplay reason not to join them. And I say this as I'm heading off to crew a guild special for them and help the guild out.

Just some thoughts.

Edx
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SiDeards
post Aug 19 2017, 08:01 AM
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QUOTE(miles @ Aug 18 2017, 08:29 PM) *
I think big guilds etc like KotL and some churches that are just so established that they should just be permanent, leaving more time for players to work on new guilds etc

Miles


+1 to this? why not make the massive well established been around since forever guilds permanent? or Eternal? lets face it these guilds have been around forever, in a fantasy world surely PC's arent the only members? guilds of this size and infamy would have attracted tons of NPCs of differing power levels seeking to make names for themselves etc so theres an IC reason to keep these guilds permanent and at max tier.

Require them to have a once a year themeday to support etc where all players booking on to play or monster contribute to the guild in some fashion or other.

Si
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fatteacher
post Aug 19 2017, 08:25 AM
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More guilds, more choice, more diversity. Leave benefits but make them more flavourful to the new guilds so they can help give character.
Fix all three tiers and have guild dungeons work towards guild items. Don't allow guild items to become eternal. If they are important, Resolution etc, the guilds need to work to empower them.
Don't penalise powerful guilds for years of love and hard work on all sides as that will really **** some people off
Allow more access to guild items with the risk of losing them. Guild then has to work to retrieve them.

Almanac should stay a paper copy as it is a publication and makes the caves a little money.
Guild leaders to keep Almanac up to date on items, blow up dates etc so there are changes from one to the next
To give space for this and a host of new guilds remove the World Points / City Points tables that show us 'Black Mana Dragon goes from 30 pts to 30pts in Halgar' etc and put this as a download.

New guilds need a startup for first tier plus extra to build up tiers but once there they can work towards the perishable items

YES I know guild benefits are 'free' abilities but there are 1000's of points of abilities still to spend our CPs on so it makes little difference in the end and gives people a boost

Just to make it clear. These are all suggestions and I am not trying to tell the CMT what to do!!



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Andy

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Godric Snowsson - Ice Mana Knight / Warrior 5k
Ginkgo Panama (aka 'Dead Man Walking') - Kensai 3.1k
Grandbow - Human Spirit Warrior - 570pts
Noyen Nopac Zu - Snake Clan Monk 1.9k

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darkrule233
post Aug 19 2017, 09:04 AM
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I am a fan of Craigy's idea.

I am, however, quite opposed to the idea of having to pay for the tiers.
One of the biggest ways that new players can actually personalise their character is through guilds, and I think limiting that would be detrimental.

Just my 2p.

C


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Fionamullin
post Aug 19 2017, 01:32 PM
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You cn make guilds perm by investing a load of monster points or dod that go away?


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