As I plan to be drinking on Friday night I thought I'd start the Friday topic to end all topics - Guilds and Monsters a bit early!
To be honest I'm not really going to chat about monsters too much, I think we all know the problems and the various solutions that have been tried to varying degrees of success.
Guilds on the other hand - I think the current guild system isn't really working with guilds constantly fading, creating a new guild a near impossible feat let alone managing to get to a top tier and maintaining it for everybody other than the knights of the land.
I love guilds, they bring a bit of easily accessible variety and allow you to differentiate so that two characters with the same spend can still do different things.
At least thats the idea, and when there are lots of guilds thats possible.
For what ever reason we have found ourselves with an overcomplicated system for the maintenance of guilds that means that only those with 3 tiers get any love and others pop up and fade before they can get a big enough head start on their blow up date.
There are lot of ways that this could be made better, personally some of my favourites are:
- Just revamp the guild system from the bottom up with a clear idea of what you want to achieve (lots of guilds)
- Guilds always have a bottom tier once they have been created
- Have some NPC guilds like the city watch etc
- Allow normal dungeons to contribute to the upkeep of guilds.
However if there is no appetite to change the current guild system then let me suggest a possible solution which could benefit all of the club.
If a set of crew - ref, aref & 2 monsters book on to an event together and the event runs they can nominate a guild to gain the benefit of a guild special.
The benefits of this are manifold - guilds can continue or get to top tier much more easily and there will be a selection of dungeons which will be created with a full set of crew, and who wouldn't book on to one of them safe in the knowledge that you won't be scrabbling round on a Friday to get them to run.
It's an option I'd certainly use as I'd love to get the scouts guild up and running but the mix of points range and skill set makes it almost impossible.
To me this seems like a plan with no drawbacks, if people don't use it as an option then there is no loss but if they do we get a diversity of guilds and a selection of dungeons fully stocked with crew.
Actually the guild special for crew really appeals to me a lot.
So much I'd even suggest dropping the monster number by 1, so ref, a ref, and 1.
But again it needs the ref to mail the points in, or put it on the debrief sheet and I'd say needs to be agreed in advance.
But good idea yay you.
Really good ideas Rich.
I particularly like the bonus if a full crew team books together in advance - if it works it means more crew.
I also like the idea of making it easier / simpler to maintain guilds. a way to extend guilds from normal adventures already exists with the CC reward of guild halls, but I have a feeling these are rarely set - so maybe something in addition, like the old guild point system.
There was once a system where GPs could be used to keep a guild running.
You got X GPS a dungeon (I'm ashamed to say I can't remember how many it was) might have been three.
That anyone could earn and use to maintain their guilds. So as long as Guild Members were actually playing dungeons they could trickle in GPs and keep guilds ticking over just by being active.
Then if you wanted you could run a Guild Special which had double the number of GPs available that all automatically went to that one guild and gve you a decent boost to your blow update.
The system was dropped because the new CMT at the time wanted to use a system that they hoped would encourage people to book and play more Guild specials and thus more Guild Dungeons, a pefectly sensible business decision at the time when playing numbers were low.
The issue has always been that a guild needs a critical mass of members at a similar enough level to be able to run fun guild specials.
Most people tend to only have one or two characters in a specific guild with the exception of Knights which is still such a good guild statwise, epscially compared to the otjher Social Guild options that people more than one character in it at different levels so has always been a bit of a surviver guild.
I think Richard's idea is great and it is pretty simple. 1 ref, 1 Aref and 2 monsters book in advance on a dungeon and can make it a guild special rather than it being the players needing it to qualify as a guild special.
Not only would this help with the crewing issue but I can see crews getting together to run a guild special dungeon. The dungeon can be guild themed but open to players who are constructive to the guild but it might not need them to actually be members.
Anyway in any event I think it is a great idea.
Did anything happen to the idea that when a really high level character dies some epic event happens?
Could the characters guilds get a boost when a 10k Char dies or something like that?
In a broader Guild discussion.
Benefits are just that benefits. You get them for putting the effort in.
The effort required to keep guilds going has been discussed a lot, but it requires 1 guild special and 2 guild themed (or 2 guild specials) and a guild board to maintain a guild for an entire year, and you probably get a bit of an extension from your guild halls. If a guild can't manage that (and a guild special only requires 6 people on it that are in the guild) the question is should the guild really have advanced tier benefits?
I have no problem with making it easier to maintain guilds, the trade off will be less benefits.
Guilds are the single biggest cultuire of wanting something so not doing much. I accept that there used to be more dungeons but the early days of guilds you needed 4 dungeons a year just to keep a guild going, let alone build up a buffer blow up date. And they need 8 guild members and no one not in the guild.
As for benefits for booking to monster. There have been dozens of attempts to encourage it, and each time a new incentive happens it makes people mosnter a bit for 2-3 months and then fades away.
A far easier options to changing the rules would be get a group of a dozen people. Split into 3 teams of 4. Book 3 dungeons, that gives you a ref, Aref and 2 monsters, and 8 players. Have the dungeons as guild themed to a selection of guilds (or even guild specials if you have enough people). Make sure you use the CP's for guild halls to help. Repeat as needed.
Also these is nothing to stop guild leaders finding a ref and getting an open guild themed dungeon going to help support guilds.
There are a great many benefits to having a lot of guilds. It encourages people to start more characters, makes it easier to moderate your IC behaviour, gives people ideas for plots/dungeons, helps newer people formulate their early spends, adds diversity to the player community, fleshes out the IC world, and if those guilds are stable gives people a platform from which to build or plan future characters.
It seems to me the only problem with having lots of guilds that don't blow up is the perception that people are getting something for nothing. The current system would work if there were far more players than there currently are, but as it is fails the player community because it is difficult to get the dungeons going. I also resent the idea that we have to have some kind of free market guild economy that punishes people with diminishing returns and a ticking clock of catch up admin. This is why I no longer try and run any guilds it was all cat herding and little play.
A very boring answer from lee there ignoring my points about the struggles of getting a guild up to top tier and indeed the fact that the system cannot work as there are too many guilds to realistically have enough dungeons to keep them going.
A quick count of my April 2016 Alamanac put the total number of guilds at: 42
Having system that requires ALL of them to do a guild special in a year is a broken system.
I'd be happy with less benefits but more guilds and variety in those benefits.
And yes I agree incentives come and go and cause a spike for a few months, but rather than saying lets not incentivise perhaps either the right one hasn't been found or the incentive needs to change to match the current needs of the target audience.
Your suggestion of a group of 12 players doesn't really address the fact that its hard enough to get 6 players a ref and some monsters and is basically unrealistic.
So I push back and say:
Give me the negatives of actually trying this.
If it doesn't work then there will be no downside, if it makes just one more dungeon run with full crew or makes one more guild stay alive then it's been a success in my view.
Viva La Revolution!
A very controversial idea but how about stopping guild from doing more that one guild special a year, or make it have a detrimental effect on the guild!
How many KOTL games have run this year? How many could of been run as different GS with basically the same players and possible even characters!
Maybe its only me, but there seems to be a few old big powerful guilds that overrule any attempt to get new guilds started!!!
*Runs for cover!!*
I think big guilds etc like KotL and some churches that are just so established that they should just be permanent, leaving more time for players to work on new guilds etc
If guild benefits are seen as getting something for nothing why don't we go back to having to buy the tier benefits with points? It also means guilds with only one or two tears are more worth while.
I like Rich's crew idea, gets my vote.
I'm also up for evening out the benefits guilds give, but as always I think you need to start at the top. I still think KotL is over powered compared to all the other guilds. I know they have done loads in the past, but I think they are a big problem with the guild system now as you need a roleplay reason not to join them. And I say this as I'm heading off to crew a guild special for them and help the guild out.
Just some thoughts.
More guilds, more choice, more diversity. Leave benefits but make them more flavourful to the new guilds so they can help give character.
Fix all three tiers and have guild dungeons work towards guild items. Don't allow guild items to become eternal. If they are important, Resolution etc, the guilds need to work to empower them.
Don't penalise powerful guilds for years of love and hard work on all sides as that will really **** some people off
Allow more access to guild items with the risk of losing them. Guild then has to work to retrieve them.
Almanac should stay a paper copy as it is a publication and makes the caves a little money.
Guild leaders to keep Almanac up to date on items, blow up dates etc so there are changes from one to the next
To give space for this and a host of new guilds remove the World Points / City Points tables that show us 'Black Mana Dragon goes from 30 pts to 30pts in Halgar' etc and put this as a download.
New guilds need a startup for first tier plus extra to build up tiers but once there they can work towards the perishable items
YES I know guild benefits are 'free' abilities but there are 1000's of points of abilities still to spend our CPs on so it makes little difference in the end and gives people a boost
Just to make it clear. These are all suggestions and I am not trying to tell the CMT what to do!!
I am a fan of Craigy's idea.
I am, however, quite opposed to the idea of having to pay for the tiers.
One of the biggest ways that new players can actually personalise their character is through guilds, and I think limiting that would be detrimental.
Just my 2p.
You cn make guilds perm by investing a load of monster points or dod that go away?
What Tiffer and others have said. There seems to be a perception from some quarters that "the stats are everything". I think this is a view which isn't particularly healthy for the quality of the system/events/fun of the players. I'd much prefer guilds to give less stat benefits and some cool little interesting / flavour abilities instead. KOTL or St. Michael for example give very tough benefits, but they're mega dull.
Guilds should add flavour and depth to role-play / interesting affiliations that help give a character additional depth and plot/role-play hooks, not just be a place to get lots of stats. We have lots of ways to get tough stats (probably too many and too tough, but that's a different discussion), but if guilds were many, varied and free, they'd be a really good way to flesh out a character concept without being unbalancing.
There's no other part of the system where you have to play X times with Y number of players a year in order to 'have stats' like Lee appears to believe you need to for guilds. Viewing guilds and guild abilities are 'rewards' for playing feels like a flawed starting point.
To add to the choir -look at making guilds permanent - just ditch/nerf guild stats benefits and allow RP benefits.
Running a guild special cause you are playing with similarly motivated characters is brilliant.
Forcing a guild special to keep a OC tier is a poor motivator.
Adding more flavour encourages more characters > more incentive to play > more players > good times.
Ultimately what we are trying to achieve is a diverse game world that encourages people to participate surely?
Carrot rather than stick.
make guilds permanent after a couple of years maybe
Might be the power player coming out in me but I'd be pretty miffed at losing out guild benefits that we quite like and I feel we earned,! As you say it's not easy organising guild adventures but we did ! Got a top tier guild done in a year organised 3 plus guild adventure and a tribal ,/ guild themeday got guild items , you get out of it what you put into it in my opinion . Most of our core members who do the dungeons don't play regularly any more due to family life work and pretty much been doing the caves since the late 80s so geeing those guys up organising dates to suit everyone ,finding refs , playing the peacemaker at times lol 😝 And sorting the crew usually takes about a week minimum sometimes more , then actually doing the dungeons successfully to boot!! It's takes it's toll and sometimes say to myself I can't be arsed to organising this again , but after you complete the dungeon and see the progression of the guild the buzz is amazing and I always comeback for more, personally if I done all that only to have the benifits nerfed or get little out of it I'd wouldn't bother
, on the role play front I find our guild specials always have amazing role play hooks that mirror our guild abilities and they all make sense , we have also been lucky that we have always had amazing refs that write our dungeons and ref them .
Maybe say keep the guild as they are or if you want a free guild with no blow up date and more role play based ( although I'd assume all guilds are role play based ) just allow them but with fewer abilities ? Have the choice of start a free or low maintenance guild or start and maintain a a guild under the current rules ( which seem pretty stright forward to me )
Ramble mode off, I hope this makes sense , I have only had 7 hours sleep in the last 8 days due to our new born bubba 😄
I'm not sure that OOC organising a guild special equates to a deserving an IC benefit?
If the club and those who run it want less Guilds then the current system seems fine. The
majority of players it seems are struggling to run guilds under the current system. My own view is that
If a bunch of players are reffing and monstering a guild special then they are doing just as much
to keep the guild system running and why not reward them with guild maintenance as Rich says.
The game we have at the moment will not support the guilds we have, under the current system = less guilds
less choice. I can't see how in a system that prides itself on its huge range of options this is a good thing. I'm less fussed that it used to be harder to maintain guilds: more people played, different circumstances. Are guilds potentially unfair - yes some guilds are, but so are non standards, ns rebirths, myths items, etc. the difference is that anyone can join.
So my view is.
Guilds are good (everything Brett said).
Getting nice guild abilities is good - for the most we like our power-playing...
instead of teirs being based on lvls - why not have it based on how much you have contributed to guild specials?
Ie if I played/crewed 1 guild special in 6months I can BB the 3rd tier? for example.
Have guild points earnt on guild specials, you can buy abilities with them?
Have guild only CC incentives (apologies if there is some of them already).
Have a basic CC contract that can add to guilds expiry date?
Trade ref/a-ref points for guild expiry dates?
I think Rich's idea at start of topic is spot on tbh. Great idea and would help massively!
Unfortunately simple facts are its difficult to get players or crew for guild specials. Guilds specials tend to get done on block with a core group liking idea and playing most of dungeons. What then happens is you get widespread points through that group or they have less playing time so like to mix & match it up with what they play so don't play 'guild' character as much.
The blow up dates dwindle and then you lose tiers and it becomes more difficult to get anything running guild special wise. Now I have heard arguments for not changing guild system from its current form but if anything I think it discourages creation of new guilds and is not woriing for existing guilds. Yes, totally agree you need to get guild specials going and you need to put some effort into keeping existing guilds running but it does seem you get little on return on doing multiple guild themed and guild dungeons.
It current system was fine, why are there only a few guilds with any really chance of surviving either log or short term?
Richard's idea regarding refs allows those that crew more (and therefore have less time to play) to keep guilds their characters are in functioning.
If nothing changes, what I can see eventually happening is you will have 3-4 super guilds that aren't going to lose tiers or blow up, and some one or possible two tier guilds that last 18 months to 2 years before fading. Making Almanac less and less relevant as you would only have a few guilds to choose from anyway.
Personally I don't want to have all my characters in Knights for example (Only saying Knights as highly unlikey to fade as guild) and would rather YP away my guild slots or choose city beggar benefits instead as whilst you are paying points for them, you know what you are getting/haven't got to watch your fav guild fade as you don't get to play that character regularly.
I could go on but lots of people have posted points of views I am 100% agreeing with so don't feel the need.
I don't have the experience to comment the same way as most but I would like to give my perspective.
My biggest problem with guilds is the lack of choice. When I create a character the guild options don't come into it until after I have an idea of the race/class/personality that I want to play. It is only after that choice that I look at my guild options.
There are so many restrictions to be part of a guild I often find that I can join only one for each of the three types and even then I am required to behave a certain way due to that guilds ethos. I then have a choice to make, either change what I wanted to play to fit into a guild and gain the benefits or just forget it as a bad idea and try to trade in the guild slot for other benefits through a points app.
This suggests that the current guild system lacks fluidity and diversity, I don't pretend to have all the answers but something does need to change, either reduce the entry requirements or have more guilds.
Personally I think the first option would solve more issues. After all why shouldn't a warrior be able to join a church or a wizard join a combat guild, it would only make that guild stronger and give more of a player base to that guild which seems to be a reoccurring problem with organising specials. Naturally the abilities would have to be broadened to reflect this diversity so that a wizard in what is currently a warrior based guild would gain different yet equally powerful benefits. This would suggest the guild was based on a belief rather than than only being allowed in because you you have the same skill set as the rest of the members.
Professional guilds: You have the same goals
Social Guilds: You have the same past times or beliefs
Political: You have the same views
Therefore change limitations like 'you MUST be a priest to join this church' to 'you should believe in furthering this god's sphere of influence'. Or 'you MUST be a Fae' to 'your interested should be the furtherance of Fae influence'. Same guilds but without limiting those that can get involved.
What's actually stopping the system being changed right now ?? I mean is it one person saying no? Is there a committee that decides? Is it just the owners that decide? A few friends in the pub ??
Surely if the majority of vocal player base is calling for change, returning players are commenting it would be a welcome change and established players are also asking for a change, then surely a change must and should be made for the good and health of the system?
Maybe put a focus group together, get established players add some new players and returning players and come up with something that can be put to the vote for everyone to make a decision on ? Atleast then you might get something you can potentially trial for a bit to see how it works, freeze the current setup if need be, while you trial something new?
Normally if it's not broke you don't fix it, but it seems clear the current system is broke with regards to guilds.
The current system works well if you have a number of players with characters around the same points threshold who want to play. Otherwise it doesnt seem to work well
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