IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Your First 250 points, what would you get?
post Apr 13 2011, 09:39 PM
Post #21





Group:
Posts: 0
Joined: --
Member No.: 0



QUOTE(MattWest @ Apr 13 2011, 10:22 PM) *
I just don't see how it's worth foregoing a 2nd colour for the sake of some limited reduction in casting damage which will only affect a minority of your spells (e.g. Casting Level II) or is only equivalent to 1 healing potion (e.g. +6 casting life) - those two abilities together add up to 75 points and are nowhere near as good as 2nd colour which is 100 points.


Several reasons.

1. If I was starting a new wizard and wanting to see how a new colour worked, I would play a couple of dungeons before committing myself to something like a second colour, Draconic Advocate or other ability that locks you into a particular path. Keep your options open until you get an idea of what the character is like.

2. The 6 casting stamina is important, because it means you don't have to eat into real life before you drink potions. Wizards are fragile, and wandering around down 4 or 5 tblp can be the difference between life and death. It's the cheapest 6 life in the system.

3. +2 casting levels means that you can cast, without killing yourself, all handbook spells. Given how often refs set dungeons assuming that a wizard can cast Dispel 10, that is worth being able to do.

I am not saying don't buy second colour just that, from experience, you might want to wait till you are around 4-500 points before doing so, if you didn't start with a specific two-colour concept in mind.

Lucy
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MattWest
post Apr 13 2011, 09:56 PM
Post #22


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,403
Joined: 15-August 08
Member No.: 653



QUOTE(LucyH @ Apr 13 2011, 10:39 PM) *
Several reasons.

1. If I was starting a new wizard and wanting to see how a new colour worked, I would play a couple of dungeons before committing myself to something like a second colour, Draconic Advocate or other ability that locks you into a particular path. Keep your options open until you get an idea of what the character is like.


True but remember a new player won't be ref-pointing his character to 7th level. He plays a dungeon at 4th level, a dungeon at 6th level and a dungeon at 8th and between 0 and 75 points. Then he has to play another dungeon before he can even possibly be eligible to 2nd colour. To my mind that's sufficient time to get a basic idea of what Bind, Magnetise, Wall of Stone and Disintegrate Range can do, or whatever it is he's chosen.

QUOTE
2. The 6 casting stamina is important, because it means you don't have to eat into real life before you drink potions. Wizards are fragile, and wandering around down 4 or 5 tblp can be the difference between life and death. It's the cheapest 6 life in the system.


It's a good point, but it has its limits. A Cause Grievous on Wings of Darkness or a Disruption (assuming you're not plated) will kill you outright regardless. I saw the former on a Max 500 a few weeks ago and the latter on a Max 250 at the weekend (but fortunately they both got soaked by *the same* monk, lucky guy!). Wizard is going to die if gets hit with anything worse than a bastard double, simply because Loc life means he will fall unconscious at best after 2 blows and die after the 3rd. +6 casting life is a nice comfort blanket but I don't think you can regard it as a definite must buy. I've never bought it yet (OK, I only have 2 wizards over 300 points, and a high wizard who is barely post 8th (and a dead alfar earthpower-based volcanic wizard, he was interesting), but still). [Edited to add - my black wizard got killed by Six Thru from a crossbow bolt, to the chest, on a Simon Mercer dungeon - his comment "The party scouts didn't do much of a good job did they" for not spotting the crossbowman lurking behind a wall... anyway it was I think a Max 750 or maybe even a Max 1500 (I was well below threshold) but even a 1500 point wizard generally speaking would die to a Six Thru to the chest - there's almost nothing you can do about it unless you multiclass out of the bracket is there, or have some funky get-out]

QUOTE
3. +2 casting levels means that you can cast, without killing yourself, all handbook spells. Given how often refs set dungeons assuming that a wizard can cast Dispel 10, that is worth being able to do.


Dispel 10 is a heartbreaking waste of mana when you have to cast it on a Max 250 or Max 500 and you nearly always then find out that all it was doing was keeping some other spell in place which you could have dispelled for 4 mana, or something stupid like that. Very cruel reffing to tax the party wizard 10% of his mana as the only way of defeating a static (and not very interesting) encounter, especially as the wizard will probably blow his Scholarly Interest or whatever on it first, IMHO. And Summon Elemental 10 is a bit of a waste of mana really. I don't think many refs set Max 250s assuming the party wizard can cast Dispel 10 simply because sometimes there will be no party wizard and if there is, unless he's at least half-way through the threshold he almost certainly won't have prioritised casting levels yet. (Spends at least 20 on Discern Associated and 80 on +10, +9 mana before even thinking about casting levels!)

It is very useful to be able to cast 8 mana spells without really worrying too much about casting damage - but you can save a lot of points by doing it with Magical Focus instead of Casting Level I and II.

I guess my thinking on this is slightly skewed by playing a Clan Rain wizard who gets +2 casting levels for free anyway so maybe you're right after all but it's never been a problem for me not being able to cast Dispel 10 on a Max 250. If anything I would almost rather NOT be able to cast it so we have to deal with the encounter in other ways and I don't have to waste 10 mana on something really boring!!!


--------------------


OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 1500); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


A longer version of this post is available on request.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MattWest
post Apr 13 2011, 10:21 PM
Post #23


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,403
Joined: 15-August 08
Member No.: 653



Got to say though +5 specialist slots is a really good buy (similar value to 2nd colour) if you can fill them from dungeons / with grulls

seems to me filling them with handbook spells for points is actually a criminal waste of points


--------------------


OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 1500); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


A longer version of this post is available on request.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jasper
post Apr 13 2011, 10:25 PM
Post #24


Arch-Enemy
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,827
Joined: 23-November 07
Member No.: 40



There is no right way to spend points.
There are several wrong ways, one of which is fixating too much on how to spend your points.


J


--------------------
No of course I won't ref. Are you mad?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BBB
post Apr 14 2011, 01:30 AM
Post #25


Avatar
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 9,450
Joined: 10-November 07
Member No.: 25



QUOTE(MattWest @ Apr 13 2011, 10:56 PM) *
Dispel 10 is a heartbreaking waste of mana when you have to cast it on a Max 250 or Max 500 and you nearly always then find out that all it was doing was keeping some other spell in place which you could have dispelled for 4 mana, or something stupid like that. Very cruel reffing to tax the party wizard 10% of his mana as the only way of defeating a static (and not very interesting) encounter, especially as the wizard will probably blow his Scholarly Interest or whatever on it first, IMHO. And Summon Elemental 10 is a bit of a waste of mana really. I don't think many refs set Max 250s assuming the party wizard can cast Dispel 10 simply because sometimes there will be no party wizard and if there is, unless he's at least half-way through the threshold he almost certainly won't have prioritised casting levels yet. (Spends at least 20 on


10th level Scrolls... You're totally overlooking that.

A lot of wizards will rely on a scroll for the odd Dispel 10, especially as the Enclave (or is it Arcarnum) gives out a free scroll.

BBB


--------------------
Grey's Law: Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice...

PS, Yes, I know my PM Box is full. Email me instead... (Which you can do through the forums email)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hulud
post Apr 14 2011, 07:11 AM
Post #26


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,695
Joined: 28-February 09
From: Woodford Green
Member No.: 891



QUOTE(Jasper @ Apr 13 2011, 11:25 PM) *
There is no right way to spend points.
There are several wrong ways, one of which is fixating too much on how to spend your points.
J


I appreciate your view Jasper but the reality is that as a new player it doesnt really help me. this is at least in part about assistance in making a "more informed choice" especially when those choices could potentially make a big difference to how likely one is to survive and or make a valuable contribution to a dungeon.

responses like those posted above help me understand what would have been almost blind choices, and might help prevent me from spending points on things that turn out to be either useless or no fun (or both)

I think if you are someone who gets to play every week then I can see the value in just "having a bash at it" and enjoying the little victories or parcels of knowledge that come from experience but if (like me) you will on average play every 4-6 weeks then it does become a bit more important to avoid situations where you might feel like you made some bad choices.

this is all great stuff by the way everyone, really helpful information (although I can't claim to understand all of it)

thanks again.


--------------------
Neil.

PM box FULL - Please EMAIL me instead: neilmillard1@googlemail.com


-------------------------------------
Conroy Suman:Grey Wizard,Nicosia Roguri: Pathfinder,Valentine:Champion,Keyser Kint:Thug,Boone:Scout,Virgil:Oppressed Troll Ranger,Doris the Dagger:Drag queen/negotiator,Sid Snout:Editor of the Sunsday Snort.

He boiled for your sins

Ramen
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
post Apr 14 2011, 08:32 AM
Post #27





Group:
Posts: 0
Joined: --
Member No.: 0



Basic max 250 priest spend

Discern Associated - 20pts
1st level of spirits - 40pts
2nd level of spirits - 45pts
3rd level of spirits - 50pts
6 casting stamina - 35pts
= 190pts

Those are no-brainers regardless of the type of priest you are, but beyond that I would consider any of the following in an early spend:

- Ranged Discern Nature of Wounds (especially for a healing priest), ranged discern spiritual mastery.
- An innate bless for a militatant goodly priest - it's 2 DAC now and a useful innate once you no longer require that AC.
- If you are planning on going undead foccussed, getting remember unknown undead type earlier rather than later helps (maybe in your first 500 points - rather than first 250).
- Because of the way casting damage works for priests, Facility 1 (no damage 1-4) is an eexcellent early buy
- Embody Angel/Abashi is the hardest power-up for its points in the system.
- Innates. The cost for priests to buy innates relative to power points (even without devotion) makes them well worth it. You will never regret having spent a couple of hundred points on innates of utility miracles like Prot, Spirit Shield, Talk to Spirits, Spirit Invis.

Lucy
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hulud
post Apr 14 2011, 08:38 AM
Post #28


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,695
Joined: 28-February 09
From: Woodford Green
Member No.: 891



Couple of questions come to mind from this (as a Warrior)

A lot of people talk about having a shield whereas I much prefer two swords as I find it easier to use a sword to parry with whilst avoiding having my opponent in any way obscured by my own shield, additionally I can hit twice as often and essentially double my damage.

The question is, am I missing something with this view ?

Also...

The + to max MC ac for 15 points, is this just an increase to your theoretical maximum or is it an actual increase to your AC if you are wearing MC Armour?

Aaaand finally....

3 out of the last 4 dungeons Ive been on, one or more of my swords have been destroyed by one effect or another which got me thinking that perhaps one of my first point purchases should in fact be "Trusty old weapon". no one mentions this, is there a reason for that?


thanks again.


--------------------
Neil.

PM box FULL - Please EMAIL me instead: neilmillard1@googlemail.com


-------------------------------------
Conroy Suman:Grey Wizard,Nicosia Roguri: Pathfinder,Valentine:Champion,Keyser Kint:Thug,Boone:Scout,Virgil:Oppressed Troll Ranger,Doris the Dagger:Drag queen/negotiator,Sid Snout:Editor of the Sunsday Snort.

He boiled for your sins

Ramen
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Carlo
post Apr 14 2011, 08:42 AM
Post #29


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,410
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Rochester
Member No.: 119



QUOTE(Hulud @ Apr 14 2011, 09:38 AM) *
Couple of questions come to mind from this (as a Warrior)

A lot of people talk about having a shield whereas I much prefer two swords as I find it easier to use a sword to parry with whilst avoiding having my opponent in any way obscured by my own shield, additionally I can hit twice as often and essentially double my damage.

The question is, am I missing something with this view ?

Also...

The + to max MC ac for 15 points, is this just an increase to your theoretical maximum or is it an actual increase to your AC if you are wearing MC Armour?

Aaaand finally....

3 out of the last 4 dungeons Ive been on, one or more of my swords have been destroyed by one effect or another which got me thinking that perhaps one of my first point purchases should in fact be "Trusty old weapon". no one mentions this, is there a reason for that?
thanks again.


Good thinking! Id go for unarmed combat, or trusty old to ensure you can always fight.

I'll echo my tendancy comment, I think you should aim for your chosen tradition in your first 250, you get so much for your points.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
post Apr 14 2011, 08:46 AM
Post #30





Group:
Posts: 0
Joined: --
Member No.: 0



QUOTE(Hulud @ Apr 14 2011, 09:38 AM) *
Couple of questions come to mind from this (as a Warrior)

A lot of people talk about having a shield whereas I much prefer two swords as I find it easier to use a sword to parry with whilst avoiding having my opponent in any way obscured by my own shield, additionally I can hit twice as often and essentially double my damage.

The question is, am I missing something with this view ?

Also...

The + to max MC ac for 15 points, is this just an increase to your theoretical maximum or is it an actual increase to your AC if you are wearing MC Armour?

Aaaand finally....

3 out of the last 4 dungeons Ive been on, one or more of my swords have been destroyed by one effect or another which got me thinking that perhaps one of my first point purchases should in fact be "Trusty old weapon". no one mentions this, is there a reason for that?
thanks again.


The 15 pointer is +1 maximum AC if you are wearing mastercrafted armour, not a plus to AC.

With regard to shield use, it's the best damage reduction you'll ever get! smile.gif You will generally get hit more going the E-class route than with a shield - as I said earlier, being able to take damage is probably more important than being able to dish it out. There are obviously some exceptions to this (like fighting the boss monster on your own and needing to put him down fast).

My four 'current' characters are a duellist, a B-class blademaster, an unholy champion and a winter elf warrior. The last two use a shield and definitely get hit less. Get a centre-boss shield and you can fight in a highly mobile style too.

Carry lots of weapons smile.gif Or make sure there is a wizard who can mend stuff. Also check out the Church of the Forge who will sell you 'Apprentice' weapons for 5K that are not destroyed by most shatter-type effects.

Cheers,

Keyth
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Harrumph
post Apr 14 2011, 08:48 AM
Post #31


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,326
Joined: 23-November 07
From: check length
Member No.: 58



the +max AC master crafted is an increase to the potential, not the actual AC

I think the reason people don't fo for trusty and old is it has a disbenefit, but also you can buy stuff that is relatively unbreakable for 5+k grulls

a shield is far superior to a weapon for blocking, it's the best damage reduction in the game, but i would also say vive la difference, if you like E class go for it, it can be a very effective way of fighting
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
post Apr 14 2011, 08:54 AM
Post #32





Group:
Posts: 0
Joined: --
Member No.: 0



QUOTE(Hulud @ Apr 14 2011, 09:38 AM) *
3 out of the last 4 dungeons Ive been on, one or more of my swords have been destroyed by one effect or another which got me thinking that perhaps one of my first point purchases should in fact be "Trusty old weapon". no one mentions this, is there a reason for that?


You loose half your points for the dungeon if you loose the weapon (e.g. if a monster picks it up whilst you are unconscious and runs away with it). That's a fairly big disincentive to buying it.

Shields are brilliant unless, like me, you are left-handed, in which case they are somewhat less brilliant against monsters fighting properly, but still very good.

Lucy


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MattJ
post Apr 14 2011, 09:05 AM
Post #33


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,332
Joined: 14-April 08
From: Purley
Member No.: 472



IMHO Shield+Sword is far more effective than 2 swords if you're trying to parry. It may take a bit of getting used to but it is alot better.

Having said that if you're using 2 swrods and forearm parry then that's an extremely effective combo.

+1 Max AC in m/c armour is a must for most fighter types.

Matt
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
post Apr 14 2011, 09:29 AM
Post #34





Group:
Posts: 0
Joined: --
Member No.: 0



This would put you in AC12 territory with 90/30 life for 245 points (assumes first stamina and WM already taken). You could swap out the +18/6 stamina and get +2 weapon mastery making 250 points on the nose - AC12, 84/28 doing triple in O/E.

15 +1 max AC in MC
35 +1 DAC
45 +12/4
20 +1 max AC
40 +2 DAC
40 +2 max AC
50 +18/6
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hulud
post Apr 14 2011, 09:33 AM
Post #35


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,695
Joined: 28-February 09
From: Woodford Green
Member No.: 891



I'm a MC studded leather guy, I tend to be faster and more agile and every fighter I've seen in chainmail looks knackered while I'm still able to go on full pelt at some point or another in the day.

this being the case would you still recommend the increase in max ac as I got the impression that only really stood for chainmail wearers?


--------------------
Neil.

PM box FULL - Please EMAIL me instead: neilmillard1@googlemail.com


-------------------------------------
Conroy Suman:Grey Wizard,Nicosia Roguri: Pathfinder,Valentine:Champion,Keyser Kint:Thug,Boone:Scout,Virgil:Oppressed Troll Ranger,Doris the Dagger:Drag queen/negotiator,Sid Snout:Editor of the Sunsday Snort.

He boiled for your sins

Ramen
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
post Apr 14 2011, 09:57 AM
Post #36





Group:
Posts: 0
Joined: --
Member No.: 0



QUOTE(Hulud @ Apr 14 2011, 10:33 AM) *
I'm a MC studded leather guy, I tend to be faster and more agile and every fighter I've seen in chainmail looks knackered while I'm still able to go on full pelt at some point or another in the day.

this being the case would you still recommend the increase in max ac as I got the impression that only really stood for chainmail wearers?


If you are going to follow the AC 3 + 2 route then you need DAC, and plenty of it. As a first-class warrior, if you're not in AC12 by 500 points it's going to start hurting. Possibly even before then. If you're goodly, try and get a perm bless off someone for +2 DAC.

If you like the two-weapon and studded leather style, then duellist could be for you - initially limited to an off-hand dagger but you can points app around that. You get enough innate DAC to hit AC12 pretty fast, and the monk buy-as to table 4 lets you buy immunity to bruising using DAC.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Martinj
post Apr 14 2011, 09:58 AM
Post #37


Mercenary
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1,870
Joined: 21-October 08
Member No.: 734



Also, what guilds are you in (this makes a massive difference - as some extra AC/life etc really helps and changes what the spend might be)?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MattJ
post Apr 14 2011, 10:03 AM
Post #38


Legend
********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,332
Joined: 14-April 08
From: Purley
Member No.: 472



Keyth...not too keen on your above spend as +1 strength isn't included which I see as a must fairly early on....otherwise it's very strong.

Matt
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
post Apr 14 2011, 10:09 AM
Post #39





Group:
Posts: 0
Joined: --
Member No.: 0



QUOTE(MattJ @ Apr 14 2011, 11:03 AM) *
Keyth...not too keen on your above spend as +1 strength isn't included which I see as a must fairly early on....otherwise it's very strong.

Matt


I'd certainly put +1 strength somewhere in the first 500, I guess it's a matter of taste exactly where smile.gif

To 'fess up, it was the first thing I got for my duellist as Route One to quad in O...


Keyth
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MattWest
post Apr 14 2011, 10:38 AM
Post #40


Hero
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,403
Joined: 15-August 08
Member No.: 653



QUOTE(BBB @ Apr 14 2011, 02:30 AM) *
10th level Scrolls... You're totally overlooking that.

A lot of wizards will rely on a scroll for the odd Dispel 10, especially as the Enclave (or is it Arcarnum) gives out a free scroll.

BBB


You mean my free scroll of Dancing Sword or Dancing Venom Sword to destroy the immobile 400 hit statue doing Quin Thru Sever?

Matt


--------------------


OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 1500); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


A longer version of this post is available on request.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st January 2019 - 05:00 PM
Original Darkness Skin Created by Danellis
Converted by Mdgshorty of New Horizon Skins