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> The Making of Laws!, Speed
Padallen
post Jan 2 2018, 05:31 PM
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Hello,

Could a member of The Senate or The Convent confirm who and how laws are made and put into imperial law!?

Thanks
Pebble


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BBB
post Jan 2 2018, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE(Padallen @ Jan 2 2018, 05:31 PM) *
Hello,

Could a member of The Senate or The Convent confirm who and how laws are made and put into imperial law!?

Thanks
Pebble


I think Muddy thing means "Covenant".

I might be wrong though I forget these things sometimes.

Where I come from the biggest Sylph says what the law is and that's it.

Quael'lesh


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Ryan
post Jan 2 2018, 05:54 PM
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For the most part Laws are discussed at Great Length by Magistrates and ratified by the Covenant as a member of Senate. In matters relating to Faiths and Dragons this is usually done under the expert guidance of Senior Imperial officials and and members of the Inquisition.

Over the course of the Dawn I was forced to proscribe / censure both the use of Amber Magic and the Faith of Aviathar.

The later because the Spiratus had recommended such already and I know the Lord Inquisitor was otherwise engaged in ritual defences of Halgar and unable to place a Censure in a timely fashion and the threat had grown beyond what it was prior to the Dawn.

I had discussed with the Lord Inquisitor the Amber Magic issue and we chose not to do anything as it was just "power" despite the threat posed by the one manifesting it. As further evidence came to light it was clearly a greater threat than first thought and with the backing of the Stadtus of the City we were working from and the Senator for Mercenary affairs I acted as both Majitus and Covenant to Proscribe the use of Amber Magic.

I am the Senator for Justice and I have the power to enact Law as I see fit until such a time that the Halls of Nobility have decided I am in abuse of that power and vote to remove me, which they may at any time.

Louis Athanyn
Senator for Justice - Covenant,
Majitus
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SamR
post Jan 2 2018, 08:52 PM
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Oh dear, oh dear - I thought things were going to get better after the last Covenant but apparently not...

The actions of senators, the Covenant and members of the Bastion were a joke over the Final Dawn - at one point the Heartwarden tried to arrest poor old Lychee on made up charges!

Lets pick apart some of the Covenant's missive and get some answers - hopefully he will be more forthcoming than his predecessor:

"For the most part Laws are discussed at Great Length by Magistrates and ratified by the Covenant as a member of Senate. In matters relating to Faiths and Dragons this is usually done under the expert guidance of Senior Imperial officials and and members of the Inquisition"

All matters relating to Faiths and Dragons are always carried out by the Inquisition and censuring and proscribing are always ratified by the Lord Inquisitor. You're just muddying the waters with your senior imperial officials nonsense.

"Over the course of the Dawn I was forced to proscribe / censure both the use of Amber Magic and the Faith of Aviathar."

Do you actually understand the difference between proscribing and censuring? It don't seem like it as you use them interchangeably. I have noticed that the good Lord Inquisitor has now ratified the censure of the Faith of Aviathar meaning that those lot are now ostracised.

Just so we are clear, what do you claim to have done with amber magic? Proscribe it? That means that anyone who uses it is an outlaw (you can have that one for free!). If so, can we get the Lord Inquisitor's ratification on that and when that comes / came into force.

"I had discussed with the Lord Inquisitor the Amber Magic issue and we chose not to do anything as it was just "power" despite the threat posed by the one manifesting it. As further evidence came to light it was clearly a greater threat than first thought and with the backing of the Stadtus of the City we were working from and the Senator for Mercenary affairs I acted as both Majitus and Covenant to Proscribe the use of Amber Magic"

The Lord Inquisitor is a sensible bloke - seems very strange to try and proscribe a colour of magic / sphere of spirits - in the past its been a faith or organisation. The Stadtus of the City and Senator for Mercenary Affairs don't have any authority in this area so not sure why they're mentioned?

Amusing that Tarquin the powerful time wizard wants temporal magic proscribed - doesn't like sharing his toys maybe?

"I am the Senator for Justice and I have the power to enact Law as I see fit until such a time that the Halls of Nobility have decided I am in abuse of that power and vote to remove me, which they may at any time."

Can't we have a Covenant that actually understands the law at some point! The last one was punishing people for the same crime years apart and now we've got you just making it up as you go along. I quite like you Louis but maybe you've got to much on your plate? You seem to have forgotten the difference between the Inquisition and the Covenant.

I would advise anyone who is being hassled over trying to preserve amber magic to wait until amber magic is at least censured before answering any further 'charges'

Tangle
City Spirit of Deci
Amateur Student of Imperial and Inquisitional Law
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Stuart
post Jan 2 2018, 09:30 PM
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The Senator for Justice is nearly correct. As a scholar of this area, I refer you to the declaration of Imperial Law made in Deeber 1010, which stated:

"By declaration to the populous, [the Covenant] may make or revoke any law and proscribe any organisation (guild, church, etc.) such that all of its members are immediately outlawed."

Any Imperial Citizen is free to complain to the Covenant if they believe, for example, that no declaration was made to the populous. Precedent would suggest that any such declaration should be clear, unequivocal and public. However the Covenant is not bound by precedent and can interpret the law, or indeed make it retrospectively by declaration, as he sees fit. Should the Senate take exception to legislation being made in this manner they can always remove him from office, or the Convocation of Nobility may force their hand.

The Lord Inquisitor is also empowered to proscribe organisations on the basis they or their patron are a supernatural threat to the Empire. This does not remove that power from the Covenant.

It bears note that the law is not there to be ‘fair’ or even ‘just’, rather Imperial Law is there to bring some kind of order to the lands controlled by the Empire, a dangerous place at the best of times.

Ruatha, Duke Stoneheart
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ChrisAndrews
post Jan 2 2018, 10:12 PM
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So what was the current legal situation? Do I need to hand myself in? If this hadn't been mentioned I imagine I would find myself breaking this law unknowingly - I'm a pretty potent wizard when it comes to cantrips and other lesser magics and could be considered some sort of "Amber Wizard".

Tertius Stone
Undergraduate Wizard
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SamR
post Jan 2 2018, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Jan 2 2018, 09:30 PM) *
The Senator for Justice is nearly correct. As a scholar of this area, I refer you to the declaration of Imperial Law made in Deeber 1010, which stated:

"By declaration to the populous, [the Covenant] may make or revoke any law and proscribe any organisation (guild, church, etc.) such that all of its members are immediately outlawed."

Any Imperial Citizen is free to complain to the Covenant if they believe, for example, that no declaration was made to the populous. Precedent would suggest that any such declaration should be clear, unequivocal and public. However the Covenant is not bound by precedent and can interpret the law, or indeed make it retrospectively by declaration, as he sees fit. Should the Senate take exception to legislation being made in this manner they can always remove him from office, or the Convocation of Nobility may force their hand.

The Lord Inquisitor is also empowered to proscribe organisations on the basis they or their patron are a supernatural threat to the Empire. This does not remove that power from the Covenant.

It bears note that the law is not there to be ‘fair’ or even ‘just’, rather Imperial Law is there to bring some kind of order to the lands controlled by the Empire, a dangerous place at the best of times.

Ruatha, Duke Stoneheart


'Nearly correct' isn't really good enough when people's lives are on the line is it! Can we just have you back Ruatha? At least you seem to know the law properly...

Good shout on your Deeber 1010 declaration but a couple of points I'd argue:

1) The Covenant hasn't made a declaration to the populous in a clear, public and unequivocal manner. If he does, I hope he makes it clear whether Amber magic is proscribed from that point on or retrospectively. Until then, I guess people like Tertius and LyChee can carry on researching Amber magic..

2) I've read up on the law you referred to. It states that the Covenant may proscribe an organisation e.g. guild or church. Amber magic does not fall into this category, its not an organisation - it doesn't even have a patron or dragon, it just exists. It would be like trying to proscribe evil spirits.

3) Haha, I think we all know the law isnt fair! I'm just asserting my rights under the Great Freedom (which we in Deci hold particularly dear!) to speak my mind against my 'social superiors' and be heard..

Anyway, I look forward to the next steps of our new Covenant, don't keep digging please Louis - maybe just admit you got a bit carried away on your first few days in the job :-)

Love Tangle
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dnsmantra
post Jan 3 2018, 11:10 AM
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To clarify matters from an Inquisitional standpoint, we are currently discussing amber magic and I will look to make an announcement as soon as I'm up to speed with the most recent facts. At a base level I am against proscribing a colour of magic, sphere of spirits or similar, simply because it might be dangerous in the wrong hands. Many things are dangerous to the Empire if wielded by those who oppose it. I would rather look at the individual, monitor their use of such power and take action against them if necessary. This is no different to someone who decides that fire magic would be a great way to burn groups of peons to death - we would take action against that individual, not against fire magic itself.

Due to its temporal nature there is the potential that amber magic's use could weaken the fabric of Primus simply by its use. I believe this very unlikely, but something akin to this would be one of the few reasons to proscribe its use - i.e. that the power itself is by its very nature damaging to Primus/The Empire. It is these sorts of things that we are currently looking into confirming or denying.

As far as the Inquisition is concerned, at this time, those very few individuals within the Empire who have access to amber spells in some fashion (e.g. Tertius through his mastery of all minor magics) and who are not wanted for other matters should consider themselves free to go about their business as usual.

Nexus
Lord Inquisitor
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BBB
post Jan 3 2018, 12:55 PM
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Having some familiarity with Temporal Matters I'd like to point out the following:

Amber Magic isn't true Time Magic.

Its more akin to the Magic of Possibility and Paths Not Yet Taken.

I think that is why Amber Mages cannot resist Silver Magic.

Silver Magic is very much a magic of solidified possibility, revealing what has happened as opposed to what might happen.

True Temporal Magic is ordered. Amber is chaotic.

Oh, I also think that its not born of a Mana Dragon or Drake.

Quael'lesh



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duncanmatthias
post Jan 3 2018, 03:02 PM
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If it helps, a portion of an amber dragon manifested at the dawn summoned I think by the Duke of Amber. Tarquin decided he didn't like it so I dispatched it for him.

Jez
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SamR
post Jan 3 2018, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE(dnsmantra @ Jan 3 2018, 11:10 AM) *
To clarify matters from an Inquisitional standpoint, we are currently discussing amber magic and I will look to make an announcement as soon as I'm up to speed with the most recent facts. At a base level I am against proscribing a colour of magic, sphere of spirits or similar, simply because it might be dangerous in the wrong hands. Many things are dangerous to the Empire if wielded by those who oppose it. I would rather look at the individual, monitor their use of such power and take action against them if necessary. This is no different to someone who decides that fire magic would be a great way to burn groups of peons to death - we would take action against that individual, not against fire magic itself.

.....

As far as the Inquisition is concerned, at this time, those very few individuals within the Empire who have access to amber spells in some fashion (e.g. Tertius through his mastery of all minor magics) and who are not wanted for other matters should consider themselves free to go about their business as usual.

Nexus
Lord Inquisitor


Finally, someone from the Senate actually talking some sense - thanks Nexus, i’ve always liked you!!

So basically the use of Amber magic isn’t proscribed or even censured right now in the absence of any public declaration.

Therefore, anyone who is being legally pursued over decisions made regarding their use or preservation of Amber magic at the Dawn should ignore any further requests for statements and so on and crack on with their lives! Great!

Why don’t we just agree that everyone got a bit carried away with outlawings, proscribing, attempted arrests and confrontations and put it to bed. I mean it’s a week later and the Senate can’t even agree whether it’s a bad thing - let alone against the law!

On the plus side - Deci is in great shape, thanks to all those that helped fight off the were tribes and take control of The Swarm.

Tangle
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Stuart
post Jan 5 2018, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE(SamR @ Jan 2 2018, 10:58 PM) *
'Nearly correct' isn't really good enough when people's lives are on the line is it! Can we just have you back Ruatha? At least you seem to know the law properly...

Good shout on your Deeber 1010 declaration but a couple of points I'd argue:

1) The Covenant hasn't made a declaration to the populous in a clear, public and unequivocal manner. If he does, I hope he makes it clear whether Amber magic is proscribed from that point on or retrospectively. Until then, I guess people like Tertius and LyChee can carry on researching Amber magic..

2) I've read up on the law you referred to. It states that the Covenant may proscribe an organisation e.g. guild or church. Amber magic does not fall into this category, its not an organisation - it doesn't even have a patron or dragon, it just exists. It would be like trying to proscribe evil spirits.

3) Haha, I think we all know the law isnt fair! I'm just asserting my rights under the Great Freedom (which we in Deci hold particularly dear!) to speak my mind against my 'social superiors' and be heard..

Anyway, I look forward to the next steps of our new Covenant, don't keep digging please Louis - maybe just admit you got a bit carried away on your first few days in the job :-)

Love Tangle


I think this represents a reasonable point of view, Tangle.

Ruatha
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