Noob Feedback, Making the system easier for the outsider Options

Hi guys,

I know you're quite keen to hear from newbies about how you can make it easier for us to get into Labyrinthe, so I thought I'd offer a couple of suggestions on the publications.

Obviously, they need to be written in a reasonable amount of jargon, and a stubborn mite like me will be quite happy to persevere with this. I think quite a lot of people might have been put off by this though, and I do think that a beginners' guide would really benefit the club. Without meaning to sound rude, there are several bits that are ambiguous due to dodgy grammar* and this could be quite easily resolved and make the information more easily digestible.

I've also found several instances where skills have been described as having the same effect as another, from a different skill set. For example, I was reading through my Druid handbook last night, and one skill was claimed to be an EP-user version of a Wizard spell. There was no explanation of what this actually meant, so in order to fully understand the Druid handbook, one must cross-reference with the Wizards' handbook. To an experienced player this might be fine, but as someone struggling to get to grips with the system in its most basic form this is a real nuisance. It would be fab if you could look at putting descriptions in full, rather than requiring the reader to cross reference.

Furthermore, the idea of cross-referencing skills between handbooks is only possible if you actually have all of the handbooks. If we need to constantly hop between publications to make sense of what is meant by the one we wish to play, can I advise that you look in to some way of making it easier to complete the set? I know you said that to publish the entire catalogue in one document was not feasible, and I can certainly see why, but why not consider selling a copy of each class's handbook in a bumper pack for a slightly lower price? I've decided to pick and choose as I can only play non-combat characters, but had a complete set been available I would certainly have favoured that. I like complete sets, me.

Finally, something that would be really useful would be something along the lines of a concordance, which need only be the contents lists from each publication in one volume, which would allow the new user to find all of the information much more easily. For example, I was wondering about whether it would be possible to play a Ranger if I could use long-distance weapons, so bought the Druid handbook to find out. Of course, Rangers are covered in the Warrior's handbook but I had no way of knowing this until I had already purchased the Druid handbook, by which point I figured that I probably couldn't, and gave up trying. I still don't know whether I actually can.

None of this is meant to be miserable and grumpy; it is all meant to be constructive feedback from someone struggling to get my head around the system and hope that it will be taken as such.

Sally xx

*Sorry, grammar is what I do. I'm always happy to help proof-reading and translating almost to Crystal Mark standard. I know I'm not there today, but my brain is frozen and I got very little sleep last night. Long story.

You could always have asked someone what book they were in before buying one and hoping.

It was actually an oversimplification of my situation. I'll spare you the saga. But I can't be the only person who's bought a book with x subclass listed as being in it, and then been disappointed to see that all it actually contains is, to paraphrase, "yeah, this has a lot in common with this class, but it's actually another class." Why bother putting it in at all?

As for asking someone, I'll come back to that in a moment.

Not to be rude, but several things you are suggesting seem, to me at least, already to be covered there.

To you, I say . There is a shedload of information to take on board when you're new, and I thought that some of the people who work on compiling publications might like to hear what it's like as a newbie trying to go round and round and round the handbooks when half of the content sounds like gibberish. To someone who knows the difference between PAC and DAC, what mana glyphs are or even where the word 'Primus' comes into the whole debacle this might be obvious. To someone picking up any of the books for the first time, it really is a nightmare.

Which kind of goes along with Sally's point that it can be difficult for people to find information in the system when they don't know all the books inside and out.

Eyethankewe.

And I dont know if you know this but you can buy publications for credits - so one day's monstering nets you two books. Bargain.

Aha, good to know. See, nobody tells me these things. I can't actually monster any more, but this is the sort of information that really needs to be available somewhere for new players. To which I would add that people should be warned that they will need a light source as well as sensible shoes for their first visit. The photos show the caves lit, and man did I get a surprise when I got there!

Guys: while it does work, "you should ask someone in the know" is not a great rebuttal to an issue of the form "information on x is not as easy to find as it should be". Even if "someone in the know" is the desk. Much, much better for it to be clearly explained in writing...

Thank you. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who thought that that was a bit of a cop out.

Yes, I know I can ask someone in the know, but what I think needs to be said is that there comes a time where you just feel like you can't ask any more. I seem to be constantly asking questions here, at the caves, of anyone I can pin down for 5 minutes on Facebook, and any other way I can think of. It irritates me - I can't imagine how it feels for the poor poppets who keep getting bombarded every time I'm within earshot. It would be much more sensible - and less uncomfortable - for newbies to have access to a simple guide that will allow them to play a simple character for their first few visits, so that they can actually enjoy the experience without having to work so hard to figure out what they can and can't do. My first adventure involved me being dragged around by another party member, who told me what to say and when, which moved the adventure along for the others, but made absolutely no sense to me.

I suppose that comes back to the argument about whether it is actually a good idea to run the trial adventures as independent from regular adventures. I can see both sides of the coin, but perhaps we could reach a compromise by, say, running a trial adventure with 5 or 6 new players and 5 or 6 more experienced players who are willing to help out the first-timers. That way, the adventure is not so daunting for the new players, which will allow people to feel like they actually have some idea what happened, but they still get the benefit of the experienced players who made my day so enjoyable. Again, just a thought from this end of the experience scale.

And I'd like to reiterate for the benefit of Mr Grumpy up there, and anyone else who is thinking it, that these comments are not meant to be a dig at the system or a slight on the people who have put the publications together. I think you've done an amazing job - I wouldn't know where to start on a project so gargantuan. I know I seem to be as thick as pig sh*t, but I think anyone from outside the circle probably does as they try to grasp the complexity of the whole affair. All I wanted to do was to offer a bit of insight to people who haven't been new at Labyrinthe for a long while as to what it feels like coming into it as it exists today. As a rule, all of you guys have been incredibly welcoming, and I feel like I've been embraced into the community whole-heartedly. For this I thank you. But I get the impression that you've had trouble recruiting new players, and the cliquey feel produced by such a jargon-heavy and confusing introduction to the system can't be helping people to step up and give it a go.

Aha, good to know. See, nobody tells me these things. I can't actually monster any more, but this is the sort of information that really needs to be available somewhere for new players. To which I would add that people should be warned that they will need a light source as well as sensible shoes for their first visit. The photos show the caves lit, and man did I get a surprise when I got there!

actually, this is all written in the handbook and the welcome page of the Labyrinthe website does say that you should read the handbook before playing for the first time.

(snip) for newbies to have access to a simple guide that will allow them to play a simple character for their first few visits, so that they can actually enjoy the experience without having to work so hard to figure out what they can and can't do.

This exists. It's called the handbook.

(snip) My first adventure involved me being dragged around by another party member, who told me what to say and when, which moved the adventure along for the others, but made absolutely no sense to me.

Unfortunately this is probably more due to the class that you chose to play more than anything else since you have to factor in things like your religion, your verbals, your remaining power points etc etc etc whereas a warrior just has to hit things.

actually, this is all written in the handbook and the welcome page of the Labyrinthe website does say that you should read the handbook before playing for the first time.

I spoke to Jo beforehand, and my ref, and explained that I'd read the handbook pretty much cover to cover but was finding it really difficult to understand. They both confirmed that I'd need sturdy shoes, but neither of them mentioned the light sources. This is not their fault - it's such an obvious thing when you've been there. In the interest of offering feedback for the editor, perhaps this bit could be moved to the "Live Role-Playing at Labyrinthe" section of the Introduction of the handbook, at which point event those of us who have no idea are still more or less following.

This exists. It's called the handbook.

I disagree. The handbook is not simple from where I sit.