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> Paladins, and their buying...
JustinC
post Sep 23 2011, 11:19 AM
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So, an Unholy Champion can have Spiritual Mastery, Suspend Life or Touch of Death innates and still buy powerhouse, or a Grey Knight have 6th lvl+ innates and buy powerhouse, but a paladin can't have a total heal innate and do the same...

What's up with that?

There are battlemasters with innate cure criticals, there are bracket-pure priests out there with human warrior life (so better than paladin base), AC12 and 100+ spirits, but for some reason Paladins aren't allowed to have healing and stay in the warrior bracket?

This feels kinda silly to me... what are the chances of reviewing this and maybe changing it back or something? I mean, I don't see paladins as being harder than defenders of the faith, or cunning bracket-pure warriors, or any number of other classes in fact. Feels like it might have been a bit of an unnecessary nerf that could now be undone.

Thoughts?

JC
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JustinC
post Sep 23 2011, 11:32 AM
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Although, Lee Dale, king of system knowledge, tells me that I'm wrong and I just don't get it. Which is good and yay if it's true =)

JC
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Ryan
post Sep 23 2011, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE(JustinC @ Sep 23 2011, 12:19 PM) *
There are battlemasters with innate cure criticals, there are bracket-pure priests out there with human warrior life (so better than paladin base), AC12 and 100+ spirits, but for some reason Paladins aren't allowed to have healing and stay in the warrior bracket?


These are called Paladins...

Paladins are insanely tough in my opinion and the options of what to do with them are huge.
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Andrea
post Sep 23 2011, 11:41 AM
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QUOTE(Ryan @ Sep 23 2011, 12:38 PM) *
These are called Paladins...

Paladins are insanely tough in my opinion and the options of what to do with them are huge.



This. I am totally with Ryan here.

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JustinC
post Sep 23 2011, 11:43 AM
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If that were true, they'd be everywhere. Which they aren't. And they'd be played by the people that really get how to be mega-tough, which they aren't.

Anyway, the point is the crazy rulings make no sense to me =)

JC
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Ryan
post Sep 23 2011, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE(JustinC @ Sep 23 2011, 12:43 PM) *
If that were true, they'd be everywhere. Which they aren't. And they'd be played by the people that really get how to be mega-tough, which they aren't.

Anyway, the point is the crazy rulings make no sense to me =)

JC


That is fair enough, although from his own admission and that of a few other "power players" Mr. Shepherd deliberately resorts to player under powered things to prove he can break them in half.
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sonof
post Sep 23 2011, 11:48 AM
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I am sure it is posted somewhere by MCC and is pretty clear but:

1st class Paladin/Grey Knight/UNholy Champion are ONLY in the warrior bracket. IF they get innates of 6th level or above (this includes base lists) then the only bracket they can go into is the priest bracket, and are no longer bracket pure. It does not mean you've left the bracket though, just you arne't bracket pure.

Powerhouse requires you to have never left the warrior bracket, you haven't.
Battle master means you can't have innates of 6th level or above, and effectively means be bracket pure.

So yes a Paladin can buy Light and truth, and powe rhouse, and have innate totals. At least as best I can work out from the rules the way they are written.

A second class Paladin is in the priest bracket, so can't.

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JustinC
post Sep 23 2011, 11:50 AM
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Cheers Lee!

JC
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Ryan
post Sep 23 2011, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE(sonof @ Sep 23 2011, 12:48 PM) *
I am sure it is posted somewhere by MCC and is pretty clear but:

1st class Paladin/Grey Knight/UNholy Champion are ONLY in the warrior bracket. IF they get innates of 6th level or above (this includes base lists) then the only bracket they can go into is the priest bracket, and are no longer bracket pure. It does not mean you've left the bracket though, just you arne't bracket pure.

Powerhouse requires you to have never left the warrior bracket, you haven't.
Battle master means you can't have innates of 6th level or above, and effectively means be bracket pure.

So yes a Paladin can buy Light and truth, and powe rhouse, and have innate totals. At least as best I can work out from the rules the way they are written.

A second class Paladin is in the priest bracket, so can't.

Lee


Yep although the problem with light and truth is no M/R and therefore no better base life than 63/21... You could maybe get 72 if you go pure humanity as an add on... I got 89 as a warrior as a Pure Humanity add on.
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sonof
post Sep 23 2011, 11:57 AM
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On the line of Paladins (and others) wouldn't it just be easier to have put them in both priest and warrior bracket like Warlocks and others are?

Or if people don't want to then how about get rid of their spiritual buy as, as it stands, and instead give them:

Table 1: Not counts as in the priest bracket, may buy as a spirit warrior 4 tables lower than themselves.

Simple, clear and easy. Means they get their base stuff, but if they want to be a better priest than that then go priest. If it seems to harsh then improve their warrior buy as at the same time, dead easy and brings them in line with every other dual bracket class out there.

Lee


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JustinC
post Sep 23 2011, 11:59 AM
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Oh leave them in the warrior bracket, but make referees pay attention to restrictions instead.

Lee, leave my freaking characters alone!

JC
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Rob
post Sep 23 2011, 12:00 PM
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QUOTE(Ryan @ Sep 23 2011, 12:46 PM) *
That is fair enough, although from his own admission and that of a few other "power players" Mr. Shepherd deliberately resorts to player under powered things to prove he can break them in half.



Fact

I think I resent power player as a title though!

A strange thing about the system Justin is people DONT play the over powered things. Brown wizards for example. Why is not every wizard 1st or 2nd colour brown? Because they are a little dull - like Paladins smile.gif

Now - Troll Vampires. That is the way forward.

I see a bright future of a Primus populated by them


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Rob
post Sep 23 2011, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE(Ryan @ Sep 23 2011, 12:53 PM) *
Yep although the problem with light and truth is no M/R and therefore no better base life than 63/21... You could maybe get 72 if you go pure humanity as an add on... I got 89 as a warrior as a Pure Humanity add on.



Yes I have 82/27 life on T10 from warrior life for a pure humanity character - very cheap - but a high table

I also have 72/24 as part of my paladins tradition ...


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miles
post Sep 23 2011, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE(sonof @ Sep 23 2011, 12:57 PM) *
On the line of Paladins (and others) wouldn't it just be easier to have put them in both priest and warrior bracket like Warlocks and others are?

Or if people don't want to then how about get rid of their spiritual buy as, as it stands, and instead give them:

Table 1: Not counts as in the priest bracket, may buy as a spirit warrior 4 tables lower than themselves.

Simple, clear and easy. Means they get their base stuff, but if they want to be a better priest than that then go priest. If it seems to harsh then improve their warrior buy as at the same time, dead easy and brings them in line with every other dual bracket class out there.

Lee



I agree with Lee


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JustinC
post Sep 23 2011, 12:08 PM
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There are loads of people who play powerful things. Paladins shouldn't be dull - they've got loads of restrictions and are pretty challenging to play well if you worry about breaking them.

Brown is one of the most common colours, either 1st or 2nd, out there. Along with ebony. Because, let's face it, they're really really hard and if you want to be tough as a wizard you either go brown for combat or ebony for sneaking/evading. I see way more wizards with brown or ebony as a colour than black, blue, green or white. For sure!

I think it's generally true that people would rather not play underpowered classes, though, no? I mean, I don't see a plethora of duellists, rogues or elysian psychics roaming the system... It certainly feels like there are a lot more UCs and GKs than paladins out there as well.

JC
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ChrisAndrews
post Sep 23 2011, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE(sonof @ Sep 23 2011, 12:57 PM) *
On the line of Paladins (and others) wouldn't it just be easier to have put them in both priest and warrior bracket like Warlocks and others are?

Or if people don't want to then how about get rid of their spiritual buy as, as it stands, and instead give them:

Table 1: Not counts as in the priest bracket, may buy as a spirit warrior 4 tables lower than themselves.

Simple, clear and easy. Means they get their base stuff, but if they want to be a better priest than that then go priest. If it seems to harsh then improve their warrior buy as at the same time, dead easy and brings them in line with every other dual bracket class out there.

Lee


This. They should be in 2 brackets, and they should have their innate buy as reduced so it's in line with or worse than a 1st class priest - being able to buy advanced innates as a bracket pure warrior is stupid!

Chris
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Ryan
post Sep 23 2011, 12:18 PM
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I hope it doesn't... my investment of costume / a couple of points apps / at least two caves dungeons in the next month would really aggravate me if said Paladin was changed completely after.

Look what you have started Justin! smile.gif
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JustinC
post Sep 23 2011, 12:23 PM
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Sorry!

I think paladins are fine in just the warrior bracket, but their restrictions should be made a little more clear, and referees should be harsh on them - you mess up, you become a warrior in 63/21 with an item and wealth restriction. Have a nice day.

Also, I'd quite like to see each church have a sort of paladinic code/ethos to make it easier to provide guidelines for paladins, and easier for referees to be strict on them.

Ho hum.

JC
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sonof
post Sep 23 2011, 12:26 PM
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The concept of a code could work well for paladins, as currently the restricitons are basically be goodly, be true to your word (some say this means you can't lie, others just if you offer word you have to stick to it), and 3 items.

It wouldn't fix the problem of Grey Knights or Unholy Champions though, but it would be a start.

I still prefer 2 brackets though.


Lee


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Ryan
post Sep 23 2011, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE(JustinC @ Sep 23 2011, 01:23 PM) *
I think paladins are fine in just the warrior bracket, but their restrictions should be made a little more clear, and referees should be harsh on them - you mess up, you become a warrior in 63/21 with an item and wealth restriction. Have a nice day.

Also, I'd quite like to see each church have a sort of paladinic code/ethos to make it easier to provide guidelines for paladins, and easier for referees to be strict on them.

Ho hum.

JC


This is all good stuff. Referee should ask a bit about if you are a fascist or a bit wet then judge you accordingly.

I love the idea of it being judged harshly but hate that the Ref. strips you paladin hood when you kill all the evil people in a village even though you have killed all evil regardless of how tough for your whole career (yes penalise it if they kill an evil peon but not a demonlord doing 10).
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