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Grace? - Labyrinthe Forum
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> Grace?
Stuart
post Apr 7 2009, 08:14 AM
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I’m going to sound like an idiot, I know, but I’m used to it. I’m sorry for falling asleep in the back of the temple during all the really important sermons. I’m not trying to cause offence – I really don’t know the answer to this and I’m sure there are lots of people who do. Can someone who likes reading please help me out. I’ll take you out for a few drinks or something in return.

Who’s Grace? Didn’t she die in the Void? Why are people worshipping her? Has Elbereth split into two or something?

If I should have kept my mouth shut, please tell me to shut up.

Ta

Essaran
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post Apr 7 2009, 08:48 AM
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She did not die.
Both Elbereth and Grace gave up something of themselves in the void to defeat and bar the Dark Lord from Primus.

Elbereth and Grace formed and remanifest into a joined entity, The Lady of the Stars, since there was only 'space' for one within the Pantheon, this happened nearly a decade ago.
However the followers of Grace gave more of themselves [she being the Lady of Sacrifice] at the time, and that hierarchy weaken to a greater extent.

You'll find that most of those within the higher crusading church understand this complexity - and embrace it, the Church of the Lady of the Stars currently has two High Priests Basil and Forlorn.

Anon.
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Stuart
post Apr 7 2009, 08:59 AM
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I remember the fight well. I couldn’t make it unfortunately because Mouse had me off doing other things, but there were huge sacrifices made that day by everyone. I don’t remember anything about rethingying into a joined wotsit.

Right. So Elbereth is the Lady of the Stars, but the Lady of the Stars is Elbereth and Grace. Grace is all about sacrifice and giving things up, and Elbereth is still about beauty, love and the good things in life, and protecting people who can’t protect themselves?

Essaran
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Bruno
post Apr 7 2009, 09:15 AM
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I do not entirely agree with the outline given.

Grace did indeed sacrifice herself, choosing an ending to allow victory. However, what was left of her and her essence was protected and absorbed into Elbereth, who also as we know was committed wholly to the struggle. This act of sacrifice and communion naturally transformed the Lady, and she is no longer solely Elbereth, but also contains significant elements of the goddess that was Grace. It is for this reason that many are speaking of her now as the Lady of the Stars rather than by one name.

However, people are quite acceptably continuing to pray to Elbereth, and to Grace, and you might consider these to both be aspects of the combined goddess now known as Lady of the Stars. I am not interested in debating, to the detriment of one or the other, whether Elbereth is a "major aspect" or Grace is "real and still alive" - this shows no faith and no respect to our goddess, whose wishes and purpose have not changed, and could only lead to argument between we mortals whose understanding is imperfect.

What is important, and fact, is that we follow one Goddess who remains strong and steadfast and there is no conflict between her aspects. Any perceived conflict is a result of our lack of clarity, not within the Lady herself. There is one Goddess, not two. The "younger" Elbereth had ideals which "older" Grace still held to, but with the passing of ages Grace's focus had gently shifted - the reference to our Lady of sacrifice is a natural progression of the Lady's teachings as a shield against the dark.

On the matter of the high priest. Those of you familiar with the Church of Talthar, or various other churches with multiple aspects or faces, may see how this works. I remain the High Priest of the Lady of the Stars - however Falorn, who had and has deep faith and commitment to Grace, acts as High Priestess to the aspect of the Lady which was once Grace. Please do not mistake this for a schism; the faithful who choose to dedicate their thoughts and prayers specifically to Grace are praying to the Lady nonetheless, and still remain within the Church, within my responsibilities, and within the faith.

I hope this makes matters clear.

In Starlight,
Basil
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Stuart
post Apr 7 2009, 09:21 AM
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Right, so if I’m about to make a sacrifice I pray to Grace to see me through. If I’m about to indulge in beauty and love, I pray to Elbereth. If I’m about to protect those who can’t protect themselves, I pray to the Lady of the Stars.

Does that sort things out?

Essaran
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Bruno
post Apr 7 2009, 09:30 AM
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That... wouldn't be wrong as such, although it's certainly not the only acceptable approach.

In Starlight,
Basil
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Stuart
post Apr 7 2009, 09:33 AM
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Great! Thanks for sorting that out for me Basil

Essaran
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post Apr 7 2009, 10:12 AM
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Stuart
post Apr 7 2009, 10:34 AM
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QUOTE(LucyH @ Apr 7 2009, 11:12 AM) *
If you head up the road north out of Gothiel about four miles, you'll see a big grey outcropping of rock on the west side of the road. Locals call it the Cat Lady rock, because if you're coming at it from the south, it looks just like a cat crouched down ready to pounce, but if you're to the north, it's obviously a lady reclining on a couch.

If you can see the Cat as Grace, the Lady as Elbereth and the Rock as the Lady of the Stars, that's sort of how it works. Or how I understand it anyway.

Bea.


Bea, I love you. That sorts it all out.

Essaran
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Bruno
post Apr 7 2009, 10:48 AM
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Very nice, thank you Bea - much more visual.

In Starlight,
Basil
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Christine
post Apr 7 2009, 07:36 PM
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Well.... I thought I should say something, so people weren't getting the wrong idea.

I'm not the High Priest of the Church of the Lady of the Stars or the faith of the Lady Elbereth, and I hope I never did anything to make anyone think I wanted to be. That's Basil. He was the High Priest before I even joined the Church, or met anyone from it, and then he was the High Priest when I became part of the Church after my Lady Grace was gone, and he's the High Priest of the Church now. I'm still Falorn of Grace.

And I don't want there to be any schisms, or the Church to split into two, or anything like that, because that would be the opposite of everything my Lady Grace sacrificed herself for, and would work against what they both wanted. Its so much of a bad thing that our enemies thought it might be a good idea to try and make it happen.

My Lady Grace loved us and loved the Lady Elbereth, as her sister and her ally and part of herself. And I don't pretend to know the mind of the Lady Elbereth but I think it was probably the same. And when you love people you lay down your life for them, the way we all don't think anything of maybe dying when we're fighting alongside our brothers and sisters in the faith for our heavenly cause.

What I would want more than almost anything would be for my Lady Grace to be as she was, when I first knew her, before the battle with the Enemy. When things weren't broken. But unless that can happen without any harm to the Lady of the Stars, the Lady Elbereth, or the faithful of the Stars, then no matter how much I or anyone else want it, we can't have it, because that would be wrong and against what my Lady wanted. There's no such thing as an acceptable evil, and I don't believe in the greater good making a wrong thing right.

One day, my Lady will return to us, because no one truly dies while they are loved. And if that isn't in my lifetime or in an Age, it doesn't matter, any more than we should give up fighting because there isn't yet a world without evil where people can live in peace and beauty. That's sort of the point of faith.

I think that made more sense in my head.

Falorn
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OxMatt
post Apr 8 2009, 09:58 AM
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I think it made perfect sense, Falorn.

I've never really seen any problem with any of this, to be honest. We all worship the same Lady. If we focus on different aspects, or use different names, or our understanding is different - well, as Basil said, we have imperfect knowledge. We are not the Valar.

May you all ever walk in starlight,

Ignatius Loyola
Priest of Varda
Priest of Nienna
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