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> Should all mercenaries get immortal for free?, Because they are unkillable..
Ryan
post Jun 22 2017, 10:14 AM
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QUOTE(duncanmatthias @ Jun 22 2017, 10:48 AM) *
With the longer you choose for your rebirth to take the longer it stays in effect.....


This is genius - I really quite like it!
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giles
post Jun 22 2017, 10:26 AM
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I'm not convinced death ever really meant anything - death isn't very epic (arguably it never has been) - it's just the bit where you're not role-playing/not playing - it's a passive thing.
I've always felt that 'I die to solve this problem' is a bit of a cop out - whether you've run out of vitae or not.
I think - perm death = big effect, would soon be seen as blase if it became more commonplace - a number of people have done it before via points app or similar so it's not as if it can't be done. I also think you'd very soon have tit for tat type stuff: 'I die as Broomo the god of belt wardings - all belt wardings become mantic,' a week later, 'I die as Ponch goddess of removing belt wardings - no belt wardings for a year' etc.

Giles.
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Abel
post Jun 22 2017, 12:32 PM
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To be fair, death feels epic when it means something to the people involved. This tends to effect people in groups that have done a long campaign and have gotten immersed in others rp and one one person goes if will effect in a deep way if the immersion was good enough. I guess some people who feel death doesn't mean anything are usually falling into two categories

1 - Don't know the person who died perm (or similar) and don't care enough to feel anything

2 - Don't get immersed into rp because they are just here to hit people with sticks, so generally don't care

I know, on more than a couple of occasions I have been emotionally moved by the perm death of fellow player I have gotten to know, while others have stood around having a giggle because they don't care. But in the end some people care, some care less, it's the game we are in.

If you don't care enough to feel something the first time around, why change it to something else that will just leave you cold the second time around. Character death is what it is and for me has always felt the same, dependant on how much my character knew the character who died.


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BBB
post Jun 22 2017, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE(giles @ Jun 22 2017, 11:26 AM) *
'I die as Ponch goddess of removing belt wardings - no belt wardings for a year' etc.

Giles.


Tell me more about this faith... wink.gif

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OxMatt
post Jun 22 2017, 03:54 PM
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I resemble this thread.

But actually, I agree with Richard. I think perm death should mean something more. I don't think the time limit should be extended, because people like me (one character wonders) simply won't play during that time. But I'd be happy with it being much much more difficult to get a high level rebirth, and just having to start up from much lower level points.

Please note I am not unilaterally disarming, Son of.... smile.gif

Matt
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JulianW
post Jun 22 2017, 06:27 PM
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A contraversial thought, but what if there were no rebirths?

You perm die as a character - well, time to start a new one then.

That's how it works in almost every tabletop rpg. Even in Paranoia you eventually run out of clones.

Julian


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BBB
post Jun 22 2017, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE(JulianW @ Jun 22 2017, 07:27 PM) *
A contraversial thought, but what if there were no rebirths?

You perm die as a character - well, time to start a new one then.

That's how it works in almost every tabletop rpg. Even in Paranoia you eventually run out of clones.

Julian


People would do what they did before being able to buy rebirth*: Start up clone characters without the memories...

Its also worth remembering some people invest quite a bit of cash and time in characters they really like playing and I don't mean the cost of dungeons.

Character specific bits of Costume, Props, Points Apps et cetera that take time and money to put together which would be mostly wasted.

(That said Personally I generally have a Tb10 Rule regards character specific costume: IF they make it that far then they must have a specific costume)

*Back when making it to 8th Level was really an achievement AND when Rebirth was an asterisked ability... You could buy it multiple times so if you didn't make it back up to 8th you could kick in a nother clone paranoia style with memories backed up form the original perm death as it were.

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Benson
post Jun 22 2017, 08:29 PM
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I also think these ideas are awesome, plenty of interesting legs to them.

It is a difficult subject to approach, I would like to share that being on the receiving end
of the old days and not getting a rebirth sucked all jokes aside I thought I died in a cool way,
I'm not that kind of person to contest and just let it go. I remember it did squash my enthusiasm for the caves
for a while.

R

QUOTE(duncanmatthias @ Jun 22 2017, 10:48 AM) *
With the longer you choose for your rebirth to take the longer it stays in effect.....

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giles
post Jun 23 2017, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE(JulianW @ Jun 22 2017, 07:27 PM) *
A contraversial thought, but what if there were no rebirths?

You perm die as a character - well, time to start a new one then.

That's how it works in almost every tabletop rpg. Even in Paranoia you eventually run out of clones.

Julian


Whilst I like the idea - I'm not sure it would not cause more difficulties - eg. if a ref overstats and your character dies, or a monster overplays their hits - it's not the end of the world, but if your favourite character of some 20 years perms as a result?
There are solutions, but also I think it might lead to more complaints, even aside from the costs - ie. in most tabletop it doesn't cost you money to advance your character - there is less of an economic investment, aside from the emotional etc.
Possibly as a halfway - no non standard rebirths - ie. you die, you can keep the memories but not gain any snacky extra ISP powers/races/classes etc. - how the original samurai rebirth worked.

Giles.
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gormaden
post Jun 23 2017, 10:40 AM
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Labyrinthe IC death is so meh. There's no drama, no tears, no RP.
Re the economic investment argument - the investment is in the role-play, the well written adventures and the experience surely?
And with a that a dramatic or even shitty death is part of the characters legacy.
Not the numbers on a green card.






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duncanmatthias
post Jun 23 2017, 10:56 AM
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QUOTE(gormaden @ Jun 23 2017, 11:40 AM) *
Labyrinthe IC death is so meh. There's no drama, no tears, no RP.


My opinion is that is a huge sweeping statement, that is factually incorrect.

Rgds

Duncan
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Nibs
post Jun 23 2017, 10:59 AM
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I've only ever had 1 non-standard rebirth and even that was just half elf warlock. I still play with no plan for rebirth beyond buying it. I still play to live unless the character is the self-sacrificing type.

I think death used to mean more because everything meant more. Getting to 8th was an achievement. Each new table reached was an achievement. Frankly even getting rezzed was an achievement. I think it worked back then just because it was the norm. You didn't get overly attached to characters because they died. Those that did manage to survive to reach table 3 or so really were special and so the special bonds formed and so their deaths meant more to those with whom they had these bonds.

As time went on rezzing became more common and so death meant less. The concept of throwing vitae at a problem or "it's only vitae" simpy didn't exist. Crowds used to form in the tavern area to watch a rez. They were an event in and of themselves. Now, even with the 5 minute ritual, they are so commonplace it's no more special than being hit with a quad (maybe a seven?). Rather than being gratefull your mates managed to get you a rez, you're now disappointed if they don't. I mean, these days, how can you not be rezzed?!

I'm not saying either time period was/is better or worse. Things change. It ain't £15 for all day any more. Costumes cost more than £20 for a full get-up. Weapons, props, makeup, armour: As everything has improved in quality (which is good!) so they have increased in price (which is to be expected). And so my first characters have all been things with very low price points to start. When I get around to buying full plate and chain for a character, yes, I'm going want them to be around for a while as I'll be several hundred pounds down before I even start.


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BBB
post Jun 23 2017, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE(gormaden @ Jun 23 2017, 11:40 AM) *
Labyrinthe IC death is so meh. There's no drama, no tears, no RP.

QUOTE(duncanmatthias @ Jun 23 2017, 11:56 AM) *
My opinion is that is a huge sweeping statement, that is factually incorrect.

Rgds

Duncan


+1 ~ Yep, bad generalisation. It is true that deaths on an average caves dungeon tend not to have the intensity of those on a Myths / extended length (I have been reduced to tears by a great IC death on a Myths.) but that is just the level of IC'ness full stop on Double length due to constraints of timing mainly.

QUOTE(gormaden @ Jun 23 2017, 11:40 AM) *
Re the economic investment argument - the investment is in the role-play, the well written adventures and the experience surely?


The economic investment in terms of paying for the dungeon yes but not in development of the character though stuff you do external to the dungeon, as previously mentioned (Props, Costume, Pts Apps that are specific to that character)

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Dave
post Jun 23 2017, 12:15 PM
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Make rebirth table 10?


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daork
post Jun 23 2017, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE(giles @ Jun 22 2017, 11:26 AM) *
I think - perm death = big effect, would soon be seen as blase if it became more commonplace - a number of people have done it before via points app or similar so it's not as if it can't be done. I also think you'd very soon have tit for tat type stuff: 'I die as Broomo the god of belt wardings - all belt wardings become mantic,' a week later, 'I die as Ponch goddess of removing belt wardings - no belt wardings for a year' etc.

Giles.


Although to have those sort of effects then the characters would have to have been around a long time and been influential enough to genuinely become god of X. And given the rarity of ultra level characters perming thats unlikely to be a problem.

QUOTE(gormaden @ Jun 23 2017, 11:40 AM) *
Labyrinthe IC death is so meh. There's no drama, no tears, no RP.



QUOTE(BBB @ Jun 23 2017, 01:13 PM) *
+1 ~ Yep, bad generalisation. It is true that deaths on an average caves dungeon tend not to have the intensity of those on a Myths / extended length (I have been reduced to tears by a great IC death on a Myths.) but that is just the level of IC'ness full stop on Double length due to constraints of timing mainly.
The economic investment in terms of paying for the dungeon yes but not in development of the character though stuff you do external to the dungeon, as previously mentioned (Props, Costume, Pts Apps that are specific to that character)

BBB


As someone who has witnessed deaths at multiple systems i do think it comes down to the length of the dungeon and how close the group are. While it is true that most of the deaths on a random double length mean a 10 minute break and some spirits, some of the coolest deaths and post-death fallouts for me have been on laby extended lengths. Even more so than some longer events at other systems. It also comes down to the individual player and group. Laby is well known in the LRP community for being very stat heavy and there are some players that do seemingly only play for the stats. If you want to experience to cooler RP side of the caves its about finding a group of people that also focus on that and playing with them.

QUOTE(Dave @ Jun 23 2017, 01:15 PM) *
Make rebirth table 10?


Given most of the issues are with higher level rebirths as opposed to the rebirth for the 1000 point character then unsure what this really acheives


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Forefallen
post Jun 23 2017, 03:59 PM
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I think the thing that makes rebirths the hardest, and I'm guilty of this myself is the 'I'd like to be a class that I can keep my pts apps with'.

Because most if not all of us are spending our characters to be hard, and points app around that. Lee balances it to what you are at the time and that's fine. But if you then add a second 1st class on top of that with a bunch of new points apps that interlink it can get a bit silly.

Although, I don't think it really matters, I play laby because I like the stats and having to think about what's going on at all times, rebirths can add to that, so I'm all for it.

Not then to mention that if you rebirth as a say.... 10K character, if you're getting the top 95pts a dungeon and putting on say 50 Mpts a time, that's 69 dungeons you've played. £690 minumum, and 69 days of play. I think with that kind of investment people can have a snacky rebirth.

I really like the idea of rebirths being influenced by the death etc though. Let that be a thing.

But then again, I've never had a 10K character, or a character reach #12, so my take on it may be completely off.


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duncanmatthias
post Jun 23 2017, 04:09 PM
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Seems a good time to remind everyone, you can't buy any previous points apps (pre-rebirth) unless they have been checked and signed off as appropriate to the rebirth by the GSM

Rgds

Duncan
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Forefallen
post Jun 23 2017, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE(duncanmatthias @ Jun 23 2017, 05:09 PM) *
Seems a good time to remind everyone, you can't buy any previous points apps (pre-rebirth) unless they have been checked and signed off as appropriate to the rebirth by the GSM

Rgds

Duncan



wink.gif


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Tarek - Ishmaic Psi/dancer Golem -
Kurai - Amlesian Monk
Jata - Amlesian Troll Shaman
Laurelion - Ebony Drave Silver/Jade Wizard
Killian - Half Dark Elf Red Warlock
Joshua De Fontaine - Pure Priest/Legendary Shaehan Assassin
Sun'so - Amlesian Wizard
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Jack
post Jun 27 2017, 10:17 AM
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I think that we should just scrap non-standard rebirths all together. Keep rebirth as people like to play the character but get rid of all of the bonuses from non-standard ones, maybe keep like a class / race combo that isnt normally available but get rid of all the extra stuff. I have a pretty damn snacky rebirth, I actually have quite a few and getting nice extra stuff is cool, but if I didnt get it it wouldnt effect my want to play the caves... I would be happy just to get the same character so I can keep playing as him.

This probably wouldnt help resolve Craigy's original point of death not really being important and is probably for another topic...

I will have a think and see if I can come up with some ideas.

Jc


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Nibs
post Jun 27 2017, 10:45 AM
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Snacky rebirths used to be a reward for reaching 1,000 points. Let that sink in for a moment smile.gif Reaching 1,000 points was hard enough to warrant a reward when you then permed.

Or perming on Myths, or the ref just deciding to throw ISP at your reborth because they felt you permed in a good way.

Perhaps moving them to the modern equivalent? What threshold today is as hard to reach as 1,000 points was 20 years ago? 5k? 10k? I have no point of reference to offer a suggestion. I had 1 snacky rebirth back in the day (I say "snacky", it got +3/1 life and weapon mastery O). I play a LOT less now and have a 3k character. So maybe dieing post 10k would warrant a snacky rebirth?

Maybe have the choice of coming back at whatever percentage of points or start at 4th with added grooviness?


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Tubbs (750pts Border Friar)
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