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> Should all mercenaries get immortal for free?, Because they are unkillable..
RichardCraig
post Jun 21 2017, 11:01 AM
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Mercenaries over the years seem to have made a step through from heroes to immortals and I'm not sure that it is a good thing.

Back in the 'old days' when you died it was actually a bit of a struggle to find somebody to res you, and that was if you were goodly and had a spirit, any other combo and it was near on impossible.

If your body was left behind, that was pretty much it unless you had enough mates to do a dungeon the next week to get your body back.

Then overtime the number of people who could res increased, and there were people who could deal with evil and spiritless.

the next stage of evolution was that they could do it from range regardless of the impediment that might be stopping them, dissolved in acid? No problems!

Eventually people ran out of res chance, if you were sensible you had rebirth and came back at 8th as a standard class/race if you had got past 1000pts and were lucky you might get a non standard race class combo.

If you died in a particularly great way, were loads of points or did it on a myths you would get something a bit special.

But over time the gates of blue heaven have been flung open, died a perm death? Don't worry have 2 base classes and some other stuff.

These started with points modifiers to balance the fact that they were the equivalent of 100s or 1000s of points worth of abilities.

But then these have drifted away and the amount of points that you can come back at has increased so the loss in points is almost balanced out by the increase in abilities.

So now we have found ourselves in a point where death really doesn't mean anything.

Now some of these changes I am in favour of, I think people getting ressed quickly is a good thing, and I think everybody else does too.

But I do think that death should be a bit of a draw back to it over time!

I'm not sure what the solution is? Or if there is even one?

I was thinking that a good solution would be that when you rebirthed you just came back as somebody else. You can get all the benefits of your snacky rebirth and extra points.

A good example is Will perming recently, the high priest sacrifices himself for the greater good - Excellent! Does anybody really care? Nope. As they know he will be back in 2 weeks with a blue card.

Anyway my thoughts, discuss!

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ChrisAndrews
post Jun 21 2017, 11:13 AM
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I agree. It's currently a bit too much like Hotblack Desiato spending a year dead for tax reasons.

I'd say that making an incentive to perm-perm would be good. Some extra ISP but you can't carry over grulls/unread teaching scrolls. That way we get a bigger turn over of characters but people can hang onto them if they want. Maybe make Crypt & Obits. only apply to proper perming. Maybe increase the benefit they give slightly to counteract the fact you can't rebirth with 100k of teaching scrolls, magic armour and shield etc.

Chris
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KatSables
post Jun 21 2017, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Jun 21 2017, 12:01 PM) *
Mercenaries over the years seem to have made a step through from heroes to immortals and I'm not sure that it is a good thing.

Back in the 'old days' when you died it was actually a bit of a struggle to find somebody to res you, and that was if you were goodly and had a spirit, any other combo and it was near on impossible.

If your body was left behind, that was pretty much it unless you had enough mates to do a dungeon the next week to get your body back.

Then overtime the number of people who could res increased, and there were people who could deal with evil and spiritless.

the next stage of evolution was that they could do it from range regardless of the impediment that might be stopping them, dissolved in acid? No problems!

Eventually people ran out of res chance, if you were sensible you had rebirth and came back at 8th as a standard class/race if you had got past 1000pts and were lucky you might get a non standard race class combo.

If you died in a particularly great way, were loads of points or did it on a myths you would get something a bit special.

But over time the gates of blue heaven have been flung open, died a perm death? Don't worry have 2 base classes and some other stuff.

These started with points modifiers to balance the fact that they were the equivalent of 100s or 1000s of points worth of abilities.

But then these have drifted away and the amount of points that you can come back at has increased so the loss in points is almost balanced out by the increase in abilities.

So now we have found ourselves in a point where death really doesn't mean anything.

Now some of these changes I am in favour of, I think people getting ressed quickly is a good thing, and I think everybody else does too.

But I do think that death should be a bit of a draw back to it over time!

I'm not sure what the solution is? Or if there is even one?

I was thinking that a good solution would be that when you rebirthed you just came back as somebody else. You can get all the benefits of your snacky rebirth and extra points.

A good example is Will perming recently, the high priest sacrifices himself for the greater good - Excellent! Does anybody really care? Nope. As they know he will be back in 2 weeks with a blue card.

Anyway my thoughts, discuss!


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RichardCraig
post Jun 21 2017, 11:47 AM
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BBB
post Jun 21 2017, 11:48 AM
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Lol,

Funnily enough I still roleplay my oldest character (Anath) as a complete coward from the days when there was no evil res. You died: You Rebirthed that was it, no res. So just avoid dying.

I even have a character who is immune to Rebirth... (Although he is unlikely to perm now given the rarity with which I play him).

To be fair some people do play characters that sort of way whereby they rebirth as something different.

Personally I've never understood that or sacrificing characters for something new. To me if you want to play something different start something up from scratch. Every single rebirth I have had has always been the same class and the same race (bar rebirth benefits).

An interesting idea but I see some flaws with it:

Snacky Rebirths were to given to reward good roleplay and encourage people not to worry about perming their favourite character.

If you remove that incentive people would inevitably be less willing to risk their favourite characters that way IF Perm Death meant losing that character forever.

Perhaps if you chose to come back as something unrelated to your original character maybe you get some other bonus?

Its a cool choice to make but it would be step backwards to enforce it and could result in people just being less interested in playing.

Remember the problem of people who basically played only one character then being forced to wait six months for a rebirth? They just stopped playing anything for those six months, which is not a good financial model for the caves...

BBB


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Gordon
post Jun 21 2017, 12:02 PM
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A large amount of people out there able to cast restore life and similar is a good thing, it does lead to diversity in the character choices and concepts that get played.

Obscure or restricted resses being freely available, less so. If you need a Magical & Neuronic restore life that work on the evilly aligned it should be damn tricky to come back and you shouldn't expect to be randomly ressed on or off dungeon unless working/playing in tandem with someone who can do that.

The current “rebirth” system is now better for ISP for rebirths not being related to the dungeon you died on, where the system was open to both abuse and generated cliques. I and other club members lobbied hard for this change. However while a positive step we have moved to a point where rebirths and powerful ones at that are common place over the rarer and more epic nature of them.

However as powerful as they can be, as unbalancing and advantageous they are for one player compared to Mr or Mrs tables spent green card and no matter how much they may make me raise an eyebrow as a ref or sulk quietly or otherwise as a player it doesn’t really matter and it often means if that character is playing the “team” game they can more than pull their weight. I have only two or three rebirths from 20+ years that get close to today’s more commonly seen rebirths, one was my first every character at about 6k when the 10k barrier had only been breached about 18 months earlier, the second more recently at around 9k and the third being from a myths in 1999 where my story ended even though I was on 90%.

I like to think we play this game, enjoy this hobby to have fun, to escape, push boundaries and shape a game world we have been invested in for longer than many personal relationships last. I want to keep playing, being part of the club and venturing into Labyrinthia and beyond and if that means someone has two 1st classes, two 1st races, a host of other abilities and no threshold modifier so what, one day it might be me, one day it might be you. One thing is for sure if it were to stop it won’t be nay of us.

Have we become blasé about character death and rebirth, sadly yes. This isn't true for all players and all characters but the wheel spins superfast and characters can come back before people even know they've died.

However there are things to consider from both a club and business point of view. People like their characters, often become attached to them and want to keep playing them even after death.

The current attitude has also shifted things "it's only Vitae" is a standard refrain but at the same time this means people are potentially more willing to lose res chance through roleplay, supreme sacrifice, taking one for the team/greater good etc. and while the act is possibly devalued from where it was depending on where you sit on the argument it does mean that events have shifted generally in a positive tone over the years with more willing to “get things done” than in the past.

The other positive to add is the continuity and depth of knowledge, history, lore etc. they can add. For some players and/or characters they want more than just to interact with the characters or monsters in front of them, you know the type happy to talk for more than 2 minutes, and the effort that referees and content creators put in to enrich the game world actually has a longer term impact and value when characters aren’t written off and with them their memories, experiences etc.

There were people who were serial rebithers, whose character class race & alignment changed every time the wheel spun most often influenced by how they had died or what had claimed their final death. While often when perming without an ISP rebirth people would just put the character away and never play them again due to loss of status, the ability to play with their IC peer group or friends.

You want to slow things down, then reinstate a period before people return however that is a barrier to peoples involvement In the club especially in their early part of their involvement.

You could write a CC and try to make it happen.

You could volunteer to put a “hold” period on any of your own characters who rebirth, play with self-imposed threshold modifiers, decide to never come back as the same “character”.

Perhaps a new campaign “tough on blasé, tough on the causes of blasé” needs to be implemented, we could always start with the 3 day smile.gif


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Gordon Court
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Known to play: Amorphus, Mithaniel, Raven & Radiant
Cast of 2009: Amorphus, Ash, Cyric, Godstone, Kessel, Prowl, Mithaniel, Radiant, Raven, Strale, Void & Vorell
Cast of 2010: Amorphus, Aqueous, Blaen, Godstone, Hex, Kessel, Mithaniel, Prowl, Radiant, Shadowmoss, Vanderlaine & Void
Cast of 2011: Cyric, Hex & Prowl
Cast of 2012: Kessel
Cast of 2013: Amorphus, Golgari, Kessel, Marimar, Radiant, Strale & "Terry"
Cast of 2014: Amorphus, Hex, Godstone, Golgari, Ink-Eyes, Radiant & Strale
Cast of 2015: Amorphus, Karador, Radiant, Strale & Zaton
Cast of 2016: Zaton
Cast of 2017: Amorphus, Godstone, Golgari, Hex, Karador, Prowl, Radiant, Variel & Zaton.
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dnsmantra
post Jun 21 2017, 12:55 PM
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I think ease of access to res, for everyone, is a good thing. It means people spend less time bored on the floor, people generally have more fun and it is a huge discouragement to cheating/blagging. If you know you'll die and get res'd folks are more likely to get involved, engage and be less likely to 'drop their glasses' or similar.

NS rebirths are probably, on balance, too powerful in the current clime (and in a small number of cases, mostly high level chars perming, far too powerful) but it is a pretty small issue. There are certainly bigger fish to fry in terms of changing things.

I think the difference for me is death vs perm death. Death is just like spending a fate point in tabletop - not a big deal, something bad happened, you get back up and carry on. Perm death *should* probably feel more important and more impactful, though it doesn't particularly at present.

I'm not sure what the fix is, or even if there is one. Limitation on rebirth turn-around time makes sense IC, but is bad for the club OOC.

Huw
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Ryan
post Jun 21 2017, 01:16 PM
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Is it safe to assume in the current climate anyone with a modifier on their rebirth is now safe to ignore it?
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duncanmatthias
post Jun 21 2017, 01:38 PM
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No....

Current rebirths have something different, tabling i.e warrior gains a level of wizard per table stating at table 3.

It could be possible to change your rebirth to this equivalent via points app

Rgds

Duncan
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RichardCraig
post Jun 21 2017, 02:14 PM
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As a devils advocate I would say that level by table isn't a restriction.

You come back at 1000pts and so you get all of the levels..

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bendy
post Jun 21 2017, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Jun 21 2017, 03:14 PM) *
As a devils advocate I would say that level by table isn't a restriction.

You come back at 1000pts and so you get all of the levels..


If table 9 was say 5000 pts the rebirths probably wouldn't be seen to be so overpowered but getting level 8 of something at table 9 does seem to make you a disproportionately hard. It seems that the tables ie 1-12 aren't really reflective of the amount of points people have as no longer is table 12 a Wow thing.
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dnsmantra
post Jun 21 2017, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Jun 21 2017, 03:14 PM) *
As a devils advocate I would say that level by table isn't a restriction.

You come back at 1000pts and so you get all of the levels..


A lot of them start the scaling at later tables - so T3/4 so you don't get everything until T10/11. You raise a valid point, but there is at least better scaling now. Post T12/10k things are pretty much broken anyway, so it becomes less relevant.

Huw
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Abel
post Jun 21 2017, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Jun 21 2017, 03:14 PM) *
As a devils advocate I would say that level by table isn't a restriction.

You come back at 1000pts and so you get all of the levels..

You'd have to be at lease 3k with a crypt or 5250 with all survivals to get back at 1k points. And most rebirths now start at table 4 and end on table 11 so you you need to get back to your points to have full advantage. After all its a restriction on something that "should" be a reward for long play and hopefully a death that meant something/was cool.

QUOTE(bendy @ Jun 21 2017, 03:47 PM) *
If table 9 was say 5000 pts the rebirths probably wouldn't be seen to be so overpowered but getting level 8 of something at table 9 does seem to make you a disproportionately hard. It seems that the tables ie 1-12 aren't really reflective of the amount of points people have as no longer is table 12 a Wow thing.


As someone who has played for over 20 years and only has one character to reach table twelve, I'd like to say it was very much a wow thing for me still.


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RichardCraig
post Jun 21 2017, 03:50 PM
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I'm not saying that people shouldn't get rebirths, I've got enough of them so that would be hipocritical.

I was pointing out that getting things by table is not as hard as restriction as a 500pt modifier either short or long term. I quite liked the % of your points per table.

But to get on track - It's just that death doesn't really feel very epic these days when you're guaranteed to pop back in a week or two.

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fatteacher
post Jun 21 2017, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Jun 21 2017, 04:50 PM) *
I'm not saying that people shouldn't get rebirths, I've got enough of them so that would be hipocritical.

I was pointing out that getting things by table is not as hard as restriction as a 500pt modifier either short or long term. I quite liked the % of your points per table.

But to get on track - It's just that death doesn't really feel very epic these days when you're guaranteed to pop back in a week or two.

How about, for people who have played long enough to not have a wow factor with T12 or have dozens of rebirths, you can choose to role 2D6 and snake-eyes true perms you? No benefits from anything else though


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Padallen
post Jun 21 2017, 06:54 PM
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I would hate to go back to the 6 month thing it chased at a lot of people away from the caves!!

I very often self impose restrictions on my characters when they die!!


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daork
post Jun 21 2017, 06:58 PM
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For me the balance would just be seeing more impact game world wise from perm death. If perm killing your highest point character had a noticeable long term effect on the world then it would feel more epic and people would probably be more inclined to do it. At current there is very little scope for that unless it is part of a campaign or large event such as an extended length or final dawn.


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Padallen
post Jun 21 2017, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE(daork @ Jun 21 2017, 07:58 PM) *
For me the balance would just be seeing more impact game world wise from perm death. If perm killing your highest point character had a noticeable long term effect on the world then it would feel more epic and people would probably be more inclined to do it. At current there is very little scope for that unless it is part of a campaign or large event such as an extended length or final dawn.

Even then there isn't, unless the ref has been staching WP or CP and didn't know what to do with them.


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RichardCraig
post Jun 22 2017, 09:32 AM
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Thats quite a good idea - perhaps an influx of XCPs per 1000pts as the death of a legend triggers a cataclysmic effect for either good or for ill...
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duncanmatthias
post Jun 22 2017, 09:48 AM
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With the longer you choose for your rebirth to take the longer it stays in effect.....
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