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> Casting The Tithes, How Nobles exert their influence in Imperial Politics
BBB
post Nov 24 2007, 02:02 PM
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Extracted from The Companion, Issue 7 Volume 6
October 2005
By Alan Morgan



Casting The Tithe ~ IC
Any member of a Hall may approach their Lord Mennihaft, asking for a Tithe to be cast by the Halls of Nobility. Their Lord Mennihaft may then decide whether to put such a Tithe to vote amongst the Hall and if he so agrees then it is announced and the Nobles may cast their vote as to their opinion of the motion. Such are always tabled as either yay or nay, there aren’t a series of choices or shades of opinion as ultimately any such vote must result in an opinion that gives little room for misinterpretation.

Such votes though aren’t equal. The Lord of a House carries considerably more weight than one of his siblings, or even a vassal Knight in some distant and overrun estate. It follows then that such approaches are often made with the support of other members of the same Hall, in order to place sufficient pressure on the Lord Mennihaft to actually act, it being therefore something of real concern than the warblings of a single, irate Nobleman.

The Tithe and its substance having been declared a time scale is given for Nobles to give their yay or nay to their Lord Mennihaft. The Hall then gives its opinion on such a matter either yay or nay. There being four Halls such can of course be tied. If the matter is defeated then no further action is taken, if it is passed then the Grand Mennihaft takes it to the Empress as the word of the Nobility. If a tie is achieved the Grand Mennihaft may then still take it to the Empress and her word either way is final. Indeed, the Empress can reject outright even a unified vote for such a matter, she does rule supreme after all but even Cerus Amora rarely did this.

The weight of each Nobleman depends on rank and their own skills at such things but a list of statistical quantifiers by rank / title / tag is not going to be published here. Quite a few characters will doubtless learn such pretty quickly but then that’s one of the advantages of playing a political character isn’t it? There are only two exceptions to the above.

Firstly a matter brought to tithe might be declared by the Lord Mennihaft of the Hall as a Matter of Substance. Typically this relates to such as overruling Governors, even Senators, perhaps revoking a law, removing a Governor, appointments not made by the Empress and such like. In such an instance, though the Hall votes as normal, it’s ‘count’ of yay or nay that wins adds on to the yay or nay of other Halls. There is a single answer, such being nearly impossible to tie. Tithed votes that lose out in the Hall are lost from the count.

Secondly a matter brought to tithe can be declared by the Grand Mennihaft of the Hall as a Matter of Empire. Such relates to major changes in the fabric of the Empire itself – the Nobles ultimately flexing their clout to force their will upon the Empress. Such matters concern the impeachment of the Empress, a declaration of War, a cessation of such, or the granting / removal of a settlement charter. Often such are left to the Senate, barring the impeachment, but such a tithed matter enables the Nobles to guide the Empire that, after all, belongs to them…

In this latter case all votes are cast direct to the Grand Mennihaft without recourse to Hall.


Casting The Tithe ~ Game Mechanics
Anything put forward for a vote by the Nobility is published in the next Companion with a deadline for votes to be received by.

Ordinarily anyone capable of such a vote simply emails it to the HotE queries address queries.hote@yahoo.co.uk - it counts as the base vote for their rank. No actual order is needed. Any LRP Noble capable of a vote can so cast his vote as long as he or she has reached 8th Level. Bear in mind according to the RoG a player can only ever have one Noble of the Blood character.

Use of Tags, calling in Vassals, using ON’s and so forth is done through an order. Unless any tweaks, campaigning or anything that adds to a vote or minuses such from others then such simply has to be added to the top of any order in that time. Text play to gain further advantage is done through text play.

Orders containing such a vote should have the word ‘vote’ added to the message header of the orders.

Addendum:
Tithes submitted should be in the format:

(Companion Issue X Volume Y): Yay/Nay (Character name / legitimate titles / House / Hall / Tags and level (if relevant) / Core Demesne and level (if relevant, if it’s land – then yes) / ON’s or CP’s if applicable.


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aaaarrrggh
post Oct 6 2009, 04:47 PM
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For some reason I've never really understood these mechanics as desrcibed here. In much simpler terms as a LRP only Noble by Blood can I vote on both types. And secondly do I just submit it as

whatever the votes on*: Yay/Nay(Character Name/Noble by Blood)

Thanks,

Henry

* as far as I'm aware the companions coming to an end.


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BBB
post Oct 6 2009, 09:02 PM
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Assuming that your Head of House has not cast a vote then you get to vote.

Yes you can vote in both types BUT you must belong to one of the four Halls in order to actually cast a vote that is a Matter of Substance.

It seems that a lot of people in the last tithe tried to vote whilst not being a member of a Hall which resulted in those votes not being represented in a Hall and thus unhdeard (i.e being discounted). Once a Hall is chosen that its you cannot change it until they are formally dissolved, something usually only done when a New Emperor / Empress takes the throne).

The balance of power within the Halls are quite interesting (well for those interested in Noble Politics) and there basic attitudes are described elsewhere. (I'll find the link)

To answer your first question it is just a Yay or Nay for each vote, noting title and Hall.

BBB


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aaaarrrggh
post Oct 6 2009, 09:08 PM
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Thanks Ian,

One last Question

Can you just pick a hall then? Or do you need to have put some turns in.

Henry


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BBB
post Oct 6 2009, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE(aaaarrrggh @ Oct 6 2009, 10:08 PM) *
Can you just pick a hall then? Or do you need to have put some turns in.

Henry


You can just pick a Hall but once done you are stuck with it.

I don't seem to have ever posted the details of the Halls here so I'll run a quick synopsis of the four Halls, there are probably some people more qualified than me to describe them (Stuart Maggs or Adam Drake, who may well correct me) but roughly speaking, here goes:

The Hall of Glass
Senior Mennihaft: Earl Natal
Belief: That Nobles should stand strong for the Empire and act as Nobles. They are most open to Nobles by Deed with the belief that the only reason Nobles have their hereditary power is because they were once like those mercenaries who dragged themselves up, becoming what they were through dint of personal power.
Notes: Contains by far the most politically powerful block of Houses notably House Stoneheart and House White as well as such loyal houses such as House De'Ville and the newly raised House Winterhaven. Although, by banding all in one house their power is actually curtailed somewhat in Matters of Substance since they Hall only represents a single vote. However in Matters of Empire where voting is not constrained by Hall then the strength of Glass in such matters is clearly visible and where Glass leads the tithe will often follow.


The Hall of Scrolls
Senior Mennihaft: Duke Rutgeth
Belief: In the Supernatural and Ritual as a way to strengthen, protect and maintain the Empire.
Notes: Somewhat cunningly the Deci Nobility, who all seem to tend to very strong ritualist, banded together to support this hall and thus unite their influence into one power block under the sway of Earl Majius, giving the Earl a somewhat disproportionate degree of influence in those votes that are Matters of Substance. Since regardless of the amount of total influence within a Hall each Hall only carries one vote and the Houses of Deci are all but vassals to the King of Deci.


The Hall of Keys
Senior Mennihaft: Earl Duff
Belief: That the Empire is maintained by Trade. That it is bound and strengthened by one part of the Empire providing those goods needed by another and that through trade the need for internal conflcit is greatly reduced and the Empire pulls together.
Notes: This house is represented by a city, the City of Keys no less, founded in this belief and with this aim


The Hall of Swords
Senior Mennihaft: Earl Edwige
Belief: The Empire was a thing forged in battle and must be maintained by force. It is a military hall and House Trakand holds much sway in this Hall
Notes: This is the Hall least disposed to actual politics, its great members being too busy on the field of battle to be sitting gossiping like women or bickering like old men. In fact, some less than warlike Houses who wish to avoid politics have been known to sign up to this Hall to avoid the need to join politics.


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Stuart
post Oct 7 2009, 05:45 AM
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QUOTE(BBB @ Oct 6 2009, 10:17 PM) *
The Hall of Keys
Senior Mennihaft: Earl Duff
Belief: That the Empire is maintained by Trade. That it is bound and strengthened by one part of the Empire providing those goods needed by another and that trade the ned for internal conflcit is greatly reduced and the Empire pulls together
Notes: This house is represented by a city, the City of Keys no less, founded in this belief and with this aim


The City of Keys was named after this Hall, but other than that there is no connection. This House is often where the most politicking ends up, and where one vote is likely to be courted much more attentively than others.

If you're a member of a noble House, then the whole House belongs to one Hall as declared by your House Lord. Stoneheart swore to Glass back when the Halls were first formed under Truic.

Stuart
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BBB
post Oct 7 2009, 10:18 AM
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Cheers Stuart,

I think also that Vassal Houses are automatically in the Hall of their Liege House.

BBB


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MarkCox
post Nov 17 2009, 09:05 AM
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Matter of Empire aren't actually voted on by individuals but rather the heads of the 4 Halls with the Empress holding the tie-breaker?

Them being NPC's then i assume any swing or support is partly gained by Lords of the associated houses talking to the Hall leader?

ta

MCC



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BBB
post Nov 17 2009, 10:52 AM
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QUOTE(MarkCox @ Nov 17 2009, 09:05 AM) *
Matter of Empire aren't actually voted on by individuals but rather the heads of the 4 Halls with the Empress holding the tie-breaker?

Them being NPC's then i assume any swing or support is partly gained by Lords of the associated houses talking to the Hall leader?

ta

MCC


The full descriptions are at the start of this thread but:

Matters of Empire are NOT voted on by Hall. They are voted on by individual Houses.

Matter of Substance are decided by the votes of each Hall. Each Hall having come to a previous decision internally by the House Lords voting within. This is the case where the Empress gets the tie-breaking casting vote since there are four halls and thus can tie quite easily.

The difference between a vote being one of Empire and one of Substance can greatly alter the potential result, basically a result of the political heavyweights tending to be grouped in the Hall of Glass so their voting power is a little watered down when votes are of Substance.

BBB


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Stuart
post Nov 17 2009, 10:57 AM
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I ~think~ that the Lords of the Houses vote and everyone in their house is deemed to vote the same way. However having individuals actually submit their vote increases the influence that can be brought to bear.

I think.

Stuart
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Stuart
post Nov 17 2009, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE(BBB @ Nov 17 2009, 10:52 AM) *
..., basically a result of the political heavyweights tending to be grouped in the Hall of Glass so their voting power is a little watered down when votes are of Substance.

BBB


I can't believe you'd be so rude to those Houses allied to the Hall of Scrolls! Not heavyweights indeed. Tut tut

Stuart
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post Nov 17 2009, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Nov 17 2009, 10:57 AM) *
I ~think~ that the Lords of the Houses vote and everyone in their house is deemed to vote the same way. However having individuals actually submit their vote increases the influence that can be brought to bear.

I think.

Stuart


All votes within a House are for the Lord of House to cast.

Individuals within that house however can "Campaign" on behalf of the House so having a large number of members within the house capable of campaigning with / on behalf of the House Lord inreases the effectiveness of the Lord's vote. Spending time using heroes turns / CPs from relevant dungeons can increase the effectiveness of a specific tithe.

All votes held by a Vassal House are likewise cast by the Lord of the House to which they are vasselled. And as with members of a house Vassals may campaign on behalf of the Lord of the House to which they are vassalled.

In short this means individual members of a House can only vote as their Lord chooses. So if you have an active Lord of House you don't get to vote directly. Ocasionally if the Lord of House is inactive then the next most influential member may vote. This has happened with House Alcaster in the past where Countess Alcaster has voted rather than Lord Alcaster

BBB


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post Nov 17 2009, 11:05 AM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Nov 17 2009, 10:58 AM) *
I can't believe you'd be so rude to those Houses allied to the Hall of Scrolls! Not heavyweights indeed. Tut tut

Stuart


Each Hall has at least one powerful block in it but Glass is the one with the most heavy hitters / power blocks. It makes for a very dynamic effect when comapring the result of a tithe by Hall and one by individual House.

I think you'll find that if you total the influence of the individual Halls that Glass comes out swinging very very strongly. Also my exact wording was "tending" to smile.gif

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MarkCox
post Nov 17 2009, 11:09 AM
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yep -
I've read it about 7times its still written "CrAZy"

Are you saying in Matters of Empire every Noble votes individually? and its counted seperately.

In Matters of Substance - its voted on internally within a Hall and then that Hall places its vote as a block?


Mark


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BBB
post Nov 17 2009, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE(MarkCox @ Nov 17 2009, 11:09 AM) *
yep -
I've read it about 7times its still written "CrAZy"

Are you saying in Matters of Empire every Noble votes individually? and its counted seperately.

In Matters of Substance - its voted on internally within a Hall and then that Hall places its vote as a block?
Mark



Matters of Empire: Loads and Loads of votes, each House votes, each house has its own value of voting power.

Matters of Substance: There are four Halls and thus Four Votes. Within each Hall are loads of votes which combined determine how the single vote of that hall gets cast.

To be honest all you need to really know as a casual voter is how you want to vote. You only really need to worry about the breakdown if you are pushing a particular tithe in which case you know that in a matter of Empire persuading Lord Doggett with his 2 votes is just not worth the time spent persuading Lord High-And-Mighty with his 20 votes.

However in a matter of Substance persuading Lord Doggett (who is in Hall of Swords) might be the 2 votes you need to persuade the entire Hall to vote in one way and thus getting 25% of the Halls. So 2 votes can be worth very little or a lot depending on the circumstance. Whereas Lord High-And-Mighty (who is in Hall of Glass) with his 20 votes isn't enough of a swing vote to sway the overall result of the Hall of Glass. In that circumstance you are better off courting Lord Doggett with his 2 votes instead of Lord High-And-Mighty with his 20 votes.

Skilled Noble Players / Politicians know who to approach at any given vote*.

*All this planning and cunning is probably why I don't have characters with significant casting votes smile.gif

Amusingly though one of my characters does however have a number of votes for sale in any house you want, for a consideration...

BBB


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Stuart
post Nov 17 2009, 11:29 AM
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Mark

According to the above, on matters of Empire every player with a Noble character votes individually. Those votes are used to calculate a figure for Influence being brought to bear on the matter.

Within each Hall the influence on each side is added up, and the winner carries through to the overall result.

The result is then based on the amount of influence that makes it through each Hall.

So if you had three Halls with very tight Nay’s, and one with a resounding Yea, the end result could be a Yea.

Note: it doesn’t seem to work like this though – I think it actually goes on a straight count of which Halls vote which way, with a majority taking victory.


On matters of Substance, each noble character votes individually and the influence they bring to bear is counted separately.

Stuart
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post Nov 17 2009, 11:54 AM
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Or do the Nobles just make it all up as they go along, that way no one knows the rules and can never get rid of them

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post Nov 17 2009, 12:28 PM
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I agree with stuart. I thinkl it's a bit rude saying all the heavy hitters are in Hall of Glass. I mean Wimbles heavy and a hitter tongue.gif

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post Nov 17 2009, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE(sonof @ Nov 17 2009, 12:28 PM) *
I agree with stuart. I thinkl it's a bit rude saying all the heavy hitters are in Hall of Glass. I mean Wimbles heavy and a hitter tongue.gif

Lee


It would only be rude if I'd said it wink.gif

Its like a classic Newspaper misquote, what is this, The Sun smile.gif

BBB


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iainwimble
post Nov 17 2009, 01:43 PM
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Hay guys

Dale all i can say is i hate you sometimes lol.

Well i have to stand up and say Mr Armstrong right about the heavy hitters are in Glass once they all club together, this is the reason House Stoneheart is so deadly in tithes and one of the things i can never get round as Troy no matter what i try and do.

But saying that Hall Of Glass are made that way and is very cool as well, makes the game better to say the least as the best supporting hall to the Empire should be the most powerful.

Iain




[size="1"][/size] Now Majius House is offering a special offer on the up and coming tithes as it seems the lord of house does not care.
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