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Obligations of the Oath in Imperial Trials? - Labyrinthe Forum
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> Obligations of the Oath in Imperial Trials?
MattWest
post Aug 28 2018, 10:36 PM
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What are the obligations of a Knight of the Land if evidence is sought by an Imperial Magistrate in relation to charges laid against a fellow Knight of the Land?

Razil


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BBB
post Aug 29 2018, 07:02 AM
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First remember that Imperial Law cannot compel you to testify.

If you do chose to testify however you should do so with honour and integrity and the complete facts as you are aware of them.

To do otherwise would be to bring the Word of a Knight and thus the Knights into disrepute.

Long have the Knights sort to uphold the ideals of the Empire that protect its citizens and we should continue to do so

Kei-Ry
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Ryan
post Aug 29 2018, 09:13 AM
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Indeed - I was once an Ivory Wizard and not speaking at all was often a way to solve many problems.

Saying that I have never found issue with honouring my oath as a Magistrate and as a Knight of the Land, in many ways the two go hand in hand.

I personally believe supporting the Law is often the best way to support the land as it is usually a way to protect the people from those who don't wish to conform with their social commitment to aid and support each other and the place they live.

Louis Athanyn
Lord Warmage
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TimTreadwell
post Aug 29 2018, 02:59 PM
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Razil, I think that you should examine why you are unwilling to testify. If it is to protect a fellow Knight from his just deserts than that's wrong.

Lord Louis, back in his Ivory Wizard days, gave me a choice as a Bandit he met on the road. I handed myself in and was sent to the Penal Legion for 5 years under his parole. I joined the Knights and have served his family ever since.

The Law is there to protect people. To punish wrongdoers and make people think twice about doing the wrong thing.

Please remember that part of being a Knight is "Acting honourably and without treachery at any time".

Aiden Smith.
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Kail
post Sep 2 2018, 09:22 AM
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Our oath says, very clearly, you may never harm a brother knight. If you know the knight in question is guilty and likely to suffer death then your oath clearly forbids you from testifying. If you know that the knight in question broke imperial law while doing the right thing then the requirement to act honourably also stops you from testifying again the knight in question.

Isaac
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DanM
post Sep 3 2018, 12:54 PM
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QUOTE(Kail @ Sep 2 2018, 10:22 AM) *
Our oath says, very clearly, you may never harm a brother knight. If you know the knight in question is guilty and likely to suffer death then your oath clearly forbids you from testifying. If you know that the knight in question broke imperial law while doing the right thing then the requirement to act honourably also stops you from testifying again the knight in question.

Isaac



I disagree

If the way you have interpreted the Oaths is correct, then no Knight can hold the office of Covenant, Magistrate or Journeyman Magistrate. At some point, a conflict of interest would arise. Now, we have had Knights in all those positions for many years and it has indeed come up that a Knight judges a Knight. It has never been an issue and justice has always been served.

You don't have to respect the laws of the Empire, but we do have to abide by them

Willock
Knight Consul


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giles
post Sep 3 2018, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE(Kail @ Sep 2 2018, 10:22 AM) *
Our oath says, very clearly, you may never harm a brother knight. If you know the knight in question is guilty and likely to suffer death then your oath clearly forbids you from testifying. If you know that the knight in question broke imperial law while doing the right thing then the requirement to act honourably also stops you from testifying again the knight in question.

Isaac


There is such a thing as harm to reputation. I would expect the Knight in question to not put me in that position nor I him or her. We don't hide behind our oath and expect others to shield us from the law. It would be a poor thing for a Knight who considers themselves guilty to hope to elude the consequences of their actions by expecting a fellow Knight not to provide testimony. I would hope we all know the spirit of our oath and what it means to live by it and have the dignity to come forward where we find ourselves wanting.

Nev'
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draco
post Sep 3 2018, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE(Kail @ Sep 2 2018, 10:22 AM) *
Our oath says, very clearly, you may never harm a brother knight. If you know the knight in question is guilty and likely to suffer death then your oath clearly forbids you from testifying. If you know that the knight in question broke imperial law while doing the right thing then the requirement to act honourably also stops you from testifying again the knight in question.

Isaac


Issac

Our oath also says that we protect the land.

The empires laws protect the land and its people, to spit in the face of the law is to go against our oath

A stray blow in the darkness wilne get ye cast out, nor will good humoured mockery even if it does harm your feelings

Darren


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Naga
post Sep 3 2018, 05:46 PM
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In case Darren wasn’t clear as he does not like to misunderstood

While we protect the land we must also follow the laws of the land we are in.

Remy
Advisor to the Lord Seeker
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Abel
post Sep 3 2018, 06:43 PM
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What about the rare case where the laws of the land directly contradict our Oath? I know is would be a rare occurrence but it can and will likely come up on day.

Xeno


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draco
post Sep 3 2018, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE(Abel @ Sep 3 2018, 07:43 PM) *
What about the rare case where the laws of the land directly contradict our Oath? I know is would be a rare occurrence but it can and will likely come up on day.

Xeno


I didne say blindly follow the rules and not te think for yeself but to oppose the laws of the empire on principle is basically an attack on the common people and sets a bad example to ye brother knights

Think first, communicate second and act third (unless not acting fast is stupid)

Darren


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DanM
post Sep 3 2018, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE(Abel @ Sep 3 2018, 07:43 PM) *
What about the rare case where the laws of the land directly contradict our Oath? I know is would be a rare occurrence but it can and will likely come up on day.

Xeno


Then you do your best and no one can ask any more
I'm sure your conscience will help you decide the correct way

Willock
Knight Consul


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QUOTE(Helsvell @ Oct 19 2010, 07:29 AM) *
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post Sep 3 2018, 10:08 PM
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Isaac has made good comments, with recent judgments being taken on the words and not the spirit of the oath. Surely this is a important issue to be resolved?

Alex Smith
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Stuart
post Sep 4 2018, 06:08 AM
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I’m surprised by Willock and others above.

Knights should do what is right regardless of the law. Laws exist to protect those who enforce them and maintain the status quo. When Baron Sidium started executing people for stealing bread, Knights of the Land defended the people against Imperial Law. I would expect a Knight to step in to defend a group of innocent hedge being slaughtered by a vochstelen, or an Emir who wanted to slaughter Athfanal children before they grew up.

Knights do what is right regardless of the consequences. We can make the choices others cannot.

Marik
Former Lord Templar
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Netheril
post Sep 4 2018, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Sep 4 2018, 07:08 AM) *
I’m surprised by Willock and others above.

Knights should do what is right regardless of the law. Laws exist to protect those who enforce them and maintain the status quo. When Baron Sidium started executing people for stealing bread, Knights of the Land defended the people against Imperial Law. I would expect a Knight to step in to defend a group of innocent hedge being slaughtered by a vochstelen, or an Emir who wanted to slaughter Athfanal children before they grew up.

Knights do what is right regardless of the consequences. We can make the choices others cannot.

Marik
Former Lord Templar


I do not believe your views are at all mutually exclusive.

We should normally seek to obey and uphold the laws. They serve to protect the land, and it's people. Without laws the lands would suffer greatly.

However, if and when those laws become a threat to the lands they are supposed to protect, then that is where our primary oath takes precedence. And we would indeed stand against them, as per your examples.

At least, that is my view.

Sirac Drakeson
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gormaden
post Sep 4 2018, 11:37 AM
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The laws there to provide rules on what is considered illegal by the empire. The empire is not a moral compass and we need to free to make the right decision as mention by Marik, even if this irks the judiciary.

Lucien.







QUOTE(Netheril @ Sep 4 2018, 07:27 AM) *
I do not believe your views are at all mutually exclusive.

We should normally seek to obey and uphold the laws. They serve to protect the land, and it's people. Without laws the lands would suffer greatly.

However, if and when those laws become a threat to the lands they are supposed to protect, then that is where our primary oath takes precedence. And we would indeed stand against them, as per your examples.

At least, that is my view.

Sirac Drakeson







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MattWest
post Sep 4 2018, 10:09 PM
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For me personally, I would say laws, rather like the Knights' Oath, are indeed a moral compass. Because at least you can work out what you are meant to do from reading what is laid down in writing and what you think was the intention behind it. Whereas everyone has different views on what they want to believe is right and what they want to believe is wrong. Others may have more confidence in their instincts as to what is right or wrong than I do, or maybe than is justified, but me, I like the certainty of laws and Oaths. That way everyone knows where they stand, you can have Order and you can keep people in line.

Razil


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 1500); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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Kail
post Sep 5 2018, 08:06 AM
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My example would be, you are travelling on a mercinary hire with anoble of the blood that is completely opposed to undead, I a city that the same noble house rules. The noble meets some undead peons, that are not imperial citizens, during the day and goes to kill them, not a crime. As a Knight you step in and defend them. During the clash you strike the noble, a crime, and end up killing them, another crime.

If you were found guilty you would like get death. Surely a brother knight should not testify against you. Imperial law is not above our oath.

Isaac
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Onasuma
post Sep 5 2018, 08:57 AM
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I think its pretty overt that in cases where we have to choose between conflicting rules for our actions, if we choose to act following one in conflict with the Knights Oath we've not actually made an oath, have we? Do the moral thing, whether or not you'll end up executed for it. If you need to satisfy your honour or reputation, do the right thing then hand yourself in, baring in mind that if you're executed for it then the next time someone has to make that hard decision, if might not be a Knight making it.

Tobius.
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Stuart
post Sep 5 2018, 09:42 AM
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If you don’t know the difference between right and wrong without reading Imperial Law then there’s something wrong with you. We, and in fact all right-minded people, abide by the law when it is convenient to do so and when it fits our moral code. When it doesn’t, we break them.

This is as it should be. Imperial Law was written by a bunch of people who happen to have been born to the right mother.

There isn’t any conflict. Your own moral code is sacrosanct. Everything else you put up with if you can tolerate it because the hassle you’ll get if you break their dictats isn’t worth the convenience of doing what you first wanted.

Even if you’re outlawed, all it really means is the Empire doesn’t care if you get murdered. Let’s be honest about it - they din’t Really care that much in the first place. Mercenaries are a convenient vitae sink to them which helps keep their power structures in place, all in the name of ‘stability’.

Marik
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