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> Guilds and Monsters - Friday discussion, Two problems - one solution
ChrisAndrews
post Aug 19 2017, 02:45 PM
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QUOTE(Fionamullin @ Aug 19 2017, 02:32 PM) *
You cn make guilds perm by investing a load of monster points or dod that go away?


It was always the same people doing that though. We had good success with claws as we got a dozen people to put in 50 each bit it still relied on Lee+ Will+ Giles (?) Putting down the max amount each.

I basically agree with everyone - guilds are more effort than they're worth. I think I managed 1/4 success rate in getting guild specials to run for natural power as although there were always loads of players interested they were of such a diverse level that we couldn't do much. I should probably just book 4 open themed events a week and maybe some will run...

Make them easy to upkeep and give flavour rather than stats and it would be much better. Guild specials give guild items rather than date extensions.

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dnsmantra
post Aug 21 2017, 12:43 PM
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What Tiffer and others have said. There seems to be a perception from some quarters that "the stats are everything". I think this is a view which isn't particularly healthy for the quality of the system/events/fun of the players. I'd much prefer guilds to give less stat benefits and some cool little interesting / flavour abilities instead. KOTL or St. Michael for example give very tough benefits, but they're mega dull.

Guilds should add flavour and depth to role-play / interesting affiliations that help give a character additional depth and plot/role-play hooks, not just be a place to get lots of stats. We have lots of ways to get tough stats (probably too many and too tough, but that's a different discussion), but if guilds were many, varied and free, they'd be a really good way to flesh out a character concept without being unbalancing.

There's no other part of the system where you have to play X times with Y number of players a year in order to 'have stats' like Lee appears to believe you need to for guilds. Viewing guilds and guild abilities are 'rewards' for playing feels like a flawed starting point.

Huw
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gormaden
post Aug 22 2017, 09:52 AM
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To add to the choir -look at making guilds permanent - just ditch/nerf guild stats benefits and allow RP benefits.

Running a guild special cause you are playing with similarly motivated characters is brilliant.
Forcing a guild special to keep a OC tier is a poor motivator.

Adding more flavour encourages more characters > more incentive to play > more players > good times.

Ultimately what we are trying to achieve is a diverse game world that encourages people to participate surely?

Carrot rather than stick.


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bendy
post Aug 22 2017, 10:42 AM
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make guilds permanent after a couple of years maybe
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oggrod
post Aug 22 2017, 11:41 AM
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Might be the power player coming out in me but I'd be pretty miffed at losing out guild benefits that we quite like and I feel we earned,! As you say it's not easy organising guild adventures but we did ! Got a top tier guild done in a year organised 3 plus guild adventure and a tribal ,/ guild themeday got guild items , you get out of it what you put into it in my opinion . Most of our core members who do the dungeons don't play regularly any more due to family life work and pretty much been doing the caves since the late 80s so geeing those guys up organising dates to suit everyone ,finding refs , playing the peacemaker at times lol 😝 And sorting the crew usually takes about a week minimum sometimes more , then actually doing the dungeons successfully to boot!! It's takes it's toll and sometimes say to myself I can't be arsed to organising this again , but after you complete the dungeon and see the progression of the guild the buzz is amazing and I always comeback for more, personally if I done all that only to have the benifits nerfed or get little out of it I'd wouldn't bother
, on the role play front I find our guild specials always have amazing role play hooks that mirror our guild abilities and they all make sense , we have also been lucky that we have always had amazing refs that write our dungeons and ref them .

Maybe say keep the guild as they are or if you want a free guild with no blow up date and more role play based ( although I'd assume all guilds are role play based ) just allow them but with fewer abilities ? Have the choice of start a free or low maintenance guild or start and maintain a a guild under the current rules ( which seem pretty stright forward to me )

Regards Robert
Ramble mode off, I hope this makes sense , I have only had 7 hours sleep in the last 8 days due to our new born bubba 😄


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Stevelouch
post Aug 22 2017, 12:02 PM
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QUOTE(oggrod @ Aug 22 2017, 12:41 PM) *
Might be the power player coming out in me but I'd be pretty miffed at losing out guild benefits that we quite like and I feel we earned,! As you say it's not easy organising guild adventures but we did ! Got a top tier guild done in a year organised 3 plus guild adventure and a tribal ,/ guild themeday got guild items , you get out of it what you put into it in my opinion . Most of our core members who do the dungeons don't play regularly any more due to family life work and pretty much been doing the caves since the late 80s so geeing those guys up organising dates to suit everyone ,finding refs , playing the peacemaker at times lol 😝 And sorting the crew usually takes about a week minimum sometimes more , then actually doing the dungeons successfully to boot!! It's takes it's toll and sometimes say to myself I can't be arsed to organising this again , but after you complete the dungeon and see the progression of the guild the buzz is amazing and I always comeback for more, personally if I done all that only to have the benifits nerfed or get little out of it I'd wouldn't bother
, on the role play front I find our guild specials always have amazing role play hooks that mirror our guild abilities and they all make sense , we have also been lucky that we have always had amazing refs that write our dungeons and ref them .

Maybe say keep the guild as they are or if you want a free guild with no blow up date and more role play based ( although I'd assume all guilds are role play based ) just allow them but with fewer abilities ? Have the choice of start a free or low maintenance guild or start and maintain a a guild under the current rules ( which seem pretty stright forward to me )

Regards Robert
Ramble mode off, I hope this makes sense , I have only had 7 hours sleep in the last 8 days due to our new born bubba 😄


Reward guilds for investing in the system. Some people have ideas above. So guild specials that ensure they have a crew in advance and do not stop other dungeons running the same day by sucking valuable monsters away or perhaps by a dungeon having a guild chosen by organizer and that guild gains extension if people book to monster it at least a week in advance?(and do not cancel)
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giles
post Aug 22 2017, 03:22 PM
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I'm not sure that OOC organising a guild special equates to a deserving an IC benefit?
If the club and those who run it want less Guilds then the current system seems fine. The
majority of players it seems are struggling to run guilds under the current system. My own view is that
If a bunch of players are reffing and monstering a guild special then they are doing just as much
to keep the guild system running and why not reward them with guild maintenance as Rich says.
The game we have at the moment will not support the guilds we have, under the current system = less guilds
less choice. I can't see how in a system that prides itself on its huge range of options this is a good thing. I'm less fussed that it used to be harder to maintain guilds: more people played, different circumstances. Are guilds potentially unfair - yes some guilds are, but so are non standards, ns rebirths, myths items, etc. the difference is that anyone can join.

Giles.
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Benson
post Aug 24 2017, 09:32 PM
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Hi,
So my view is.
Guilds are good (everything Brett said).

Getting nice guild abilities is good - for the most we like our power-playing...

instead of teirs being based on lvls - why not have it based on how much you have contributed to guild specials?
Ie if I played/crewed 1 guild special in 6months I can BB the 3rd tier? for example.

R

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Benson
post Aug 24 2017, 09:34 PM
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Have guild points earnt on guild specials, you can buy abilities with them?



QUOTE(Benson @ Aug 24 2017, 10:32 PM) *
Hi,
So my view is.
Guilds are good (everything Brett said).

Getting nice guild abilities is good - for the most we like our power-playing...

instead of teirs being based on lvls - why not have it based on how much you have contributed to guild specials?
Ie if I played/crewed 1 guild special in 6months I can BB the 3rd tier? for example.

R

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Benson
post Aug 24 2017, 09:35 PM
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Have guild only CC incentives (apologies if there is some of them already).

R
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Benson
post Aug 24 2017, 09:35 PM
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Have a basic CC contract that can add to guilds expiry date?

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Benson
post Aug 24 2017, 09:36 PM
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Trade ref/a-ref points for guild expiry dates?
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fatteacher
post Aug 24 2017, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE(Benson @ Aug 24 2017, 10:36 PM) *
Trade ref/a-ref points for guild expiry dates?

Gain extensions to guild blow up dates by writing posts about them on the forum. If posts are made on a Friday, all abilities become Mantic (Please don't read this until tomorrow wink.gif )


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AlanG
post Aug 28 2017, 05:38 PM
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I think Rich's idea at start of topic is spot on tbh. Great idea and would help massively!

Unfortunately simple facts are its difficult to get players or crew for guild specials. Guilds specials tend to get done on block with a core group liking idea and playing most of dungeons. What then happens is you get widespread points through that group or they have less playing time so like to mix & match it up with what they play so don't play 'guild' character as much.

The blow up dates dwindle and then you lose tiers and it becomes more difficult to get anything running guild special wise. Now I have heard arguments for not changing guild system from its current form but if anything I think it discourages creation of new guilds and is not woriing for existing guilds. Yes, totally agree you need to get guild specials going and you need to put some effort into keeping existing guilds running but it does seem you get little on return on doing multiple guild themed and guild dungeons.

It current system was fine, why are there only a few guilds with any really chance of surviving either log or short term?

Richard's idea regarding refs allows those that crew more (and therefore have less time to play) to keep guilds their characters are in functioning.

If nothing changes, what I can see eventually happening is you will have 3-4 super guilds that aren't going to lose tiers or blow up, and some one or possible two tier guilds that last 18 months to 2 years before fading. Making Almanac less and less relevant as you would only have a few guilds to choose from anyway.

Personally I don't want to have all my characters in Knights for example (Only saying Knights as highly unlikey to fade as guild) and would rather YP away my guild slots or choose city beggar benefits instead as whilst you are paying points for them, you know what you are getting/haven't got to watch your fav guild fade as you don't get to play that character regularly.

I could go on but lots of people have posted points of views I am 100% agreeing with so don't feel the need.

Alan
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JamesC
post Sep 5 2017, 09:01 PM
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I don't have the experience to comment the same way as most but I would like to give my perspective.

My biggest problem with guilds is the lack of choice. When I create a character the guild options don't come into it until after I have an idea of the race/class/personality that I want to play. It is only after that choice that I look at my guild options.

There are so many restrictions to be part of a guild I often find that I can join only one for each of the three types and even then I am required to behave a certain way due to that guilds ethos. I then have a choice to make, either change what I wanted to play to fit into a guild and gain the benefits or just forget it as a bad idea and try to trade in the guild slot for other benefits through a points app.

This suggests that the current guild system lacks fluidity and diversity, I don't pretend to have all the answers but something does need to change, either reduce the entry requirements or have more guilds.

Personally I think the first option would solve more issues. After all why shouldn't a warrior be able to join a church or a wizard join a combat guild, it would only make that guild stronger and give more of a player base to that guild which seems to be a reoccurring problem with organising specials. Naturally the abilities would have to be broadened to reflect this diversity so that a wizard in what is currently a warrior based guild would gain different yet equally powerful benefits. This would suggest the guild was based on a belief rather than than only being allowed in because you you have the same skill set as the rest of the members.

To expand:
Professional guilds: You have the same goals
Social Guilds: You have the same past times or beliefs
Political: You have the same views

Therefore change limitations like 'you MUST be a priest to join this church' to 'you should believe in furthering this god's sphere of influence'. Or 'you MUST be a Fae' to 'your interested should be the furtherance of Fae influence'. Same guilds but without limiting those that can get involved.


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Blackmoor
post Sep 5 2017, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Aug 17 2017, 06:52 PM) *
I love guilds, they bring a bit of easily accessible variety and allow you to differentiate so that two characters with the same spend can still do different things.

At least thats the idea, and when there are lots of guilds thats possible


Where have all the guilds gone?

Having only just returned to the caves after a long hiatus my views must be taken with a pinch of salt ... before you all decide to burn me at the stake as a heretic!

Must every guild be built from the blood, sweat and tears of players? Perhsp the setting could support a collection of basic guilds? Sure, they wouldn't be as powerful as the established player guilds but would instantly inject the diversity and colour many seek. These would be owned and managed by the system at least in the first instance. Guilds that get played consistently stick around those that don't slowly fade.

You could ask the playing community to put forward suggestions. New guilds could also spring up as a result of major setting events, plot lines etc.

Cheers,
Adam


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dnsmantra
post Sep 6 2017, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE(Blackmoor @ Sep 5 2017, 11:19 PM) *
Where have all the guilds gone?


This is the same feeling I think 90% of the player-base have atm... It is just too difficult to maintain them in the current clime.

This is compounded by the fact that a new guild with one tier just cannot compete for attention compared to a three tier heavyweight. Also, with the general trend of diminishing player numbers over the last ten or so years, the number of people available to support the more niche guilds has fallen too. I suspect it won't be long until we have a tiny number of guilds that everyone is in - we're already heading that way.

It is such a shame that there isn't more choice and that guilds aren't easier to maintain.

Huw
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SiDeards
post Sep 6 2017, 05:08 PM
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What's actually stopping the system being changed right now ?? I mean is it one person saying no? Is there a committee that decides? Is it just the owners that decide? A few friends in the pub ??

Surely if the majority of vocal player base is calling for change, returning players are commenting it would be a welcome change and established players are also asking for a change, then surely a change must and should be made for the good and health of the system?

Maybe put a focus group together, get established players add some new players and returning players and come up with something that can be put to the vote for everyone to make a decision on ? Atleast then you might get something you can potentially trial for a bit to see how it works, freeze the current setup if need be, while you trial something new?

Normally if it's not broke you don't fix it, but it seems clear the current system is broke with regards to guilds.
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Helsvell
post Sep 11 2017, 11:09 PM
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The current system works well if you have a number of players with characters around the same points threshold who want to play. Otherwise it doesnt seem to work well sad.gif


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