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> Adding monster points to characters on day of monstering, suggestion
MattWest
post Jun 30 2013, 02:23 PM
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If people could just add monster points whenever they wanted, there would be an uncanny number of people who whenever they play a Max 250 have exactly 250 points, whenever they play a Max 500 would have exactly 500 points, whenever they play a Max 750 have exactly 750 points etc.

If you have a "secondary" "making" character, what do you get out of it? The ability to supply your mates with lots of gear? You can't keep the grulls and profit for a primary character. That would be cheating - mixing the resources of two of your characters. So what would people be doing? Planning a way around this in a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours sort of a way? Each of a group of mates has a secondary making character to supply their mates' primary characters and what's the end result? Item inflation. The brute warrior walking around in magic armour with magic weapon, magic shield, magic belt, magic shoelaces etc. is loving it, the monk (no items) and the paladin (max 3 items) not so much.

I can see why if you're playing a T11 character and you've fought your way through the dungeons to get there, you might think that someone parachuted in with 6,000 points added straight onto their card from nowhere hadn't earnt their stripes.

Bottom line, the mechanism of add points when you play is quite sensible. You can already swap from credits to monster points and get 64 monster points for a day's monstering which is not much different to the 75 suggested upthread. Suppose the Caves tried a short-term deal where you could swap 1 credit for 3 monster points... meaning 76 monster points for a day's monstering (double-length), would this be a reasonable experiment?

Neil in particular, when you do your four-day the ref-team might just let you add monster points in advance on the basis of the extended length of the adventure. Think that's what happened on the 3-day we did. This would seem more likely to solve your immediate issue though I would suggest that bunging all those monster points onto a character on 20% is probably not the best plan. Wait for your rebirth... then you can add 75 points first time you play and 25 each time you play after that, plus cash monster points in for grulls and items, this is plenty, what's the problem? Only if you are literally monstering twice as often as you play are you going to run out of things to spend monster points on, and the Caves doesn't need that ratio from the majority of players, and the people who monster in that ratio are probably teenagers and students doing it for the credits.

I can envisage a mechanic whereby the CMT can police how many times you add monster points when monstering instead of when playing... namely simply put solid lines around the monster points you're adding onto your card when you write them in, and/or use a special pen colour (say, red) now reserved for monster points.


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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BBB
post Jun 30 2013, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE(Hulud @ Jun 27 2013, 07:26 PM) *
In fairness (and with respect) the question was put "what would get someone who doesn't monster much to monster more" and in the case of a few people it seems the answer is allowing them to spend monster points on characters on the day of monstering and indeed broadening the table of what monster points can be used for.

If doing something like this wouldn't cause any real harm to the game and would certainly not stop people who currently monster from monstering as much then I struggle to see a compelling argument against it.


You're still missing the point: Upping the ease with which you can earn and use monster points means an initial uptake that will quickly tail off.

It's in no way a sustainable solution to the monster problem and will create further problems down the line.

This is exactly what has happened whenever the rewards for monstering have been increased.

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Nibs
post Jul 1 2013, 08:33 AM
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QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Jun 26 2013, 09:33 PM) *
You basically just need to let people get 75pt and no credits when they monster, that they can add to any chr they want when they monster.

It's almost so simple that it won't actually happen.

As for caps and all that just think which will upset you more, somebody monstering 10 times and adding 750pts or doing 10 dungeons without a monster..

If somebody wants to monster everyweekend for a year they will get a 52*75 = 3900pt chr.

Do you know what? I think they deserve it!


Make it 7,800 if they monster both days. Then add in more for the odd themeday, extended length, mid-week adventure. Suddenly someone's got close to a 10K character.

Just sayin'.


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Hulud
post Jul 1 2013, 09:03 AM
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QUOTE(MattWest @ Jun 30 2013, 03:23 PM) *
If people could just add monster points whenever they wanted, there would be an uncanny number of people who whenever they play a Max 250 have exactly 250 points, whenever they play a Max 500 would have exactly 500 points, whenever they play a Max 750 have exactly 750 points etc.

I don't see a game breaking issue with this...

If you have a "secondary" "making" character, what do you get out of it? The ability to supply your mates with lots of gear? You can't keep the grulls and profit for a primary character. That would be cheating - mixing the resources of two of your characters. So what would people be doing? Planning a way around this in a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours sort of a way? Each of a group of mates has a secondary making character to supply their mates' primary characters and what's the end result? Item inflation. The brute warrior walking around in magic armour with magic weapon, magic shield, magic belt, magic shoelaces etc. is loving it, the monk (no items) and the paladin (max 3 items) not so much.

The mutual back scratching is surely possible already?
I agree there would likely be item inflation but would it be too much inflation?, inflation isn't always bad. (I should point out that inexperience on my part makes me less confident on this particular point)
I concede that item inflation would put the monk, paladin item restrictions potentially out of whack and I have to also concede that I don't have a counter to this.


I can see why if you're playing a T11 character and you've fought your way through the dungeons to get there, you might think that someone parachuted in with 6,000 points added straight onto their card from nowhere hadn't earnt their stripes.

I would definitely argue that a person who had 6000 monster points to plonk on a character had indeed earned their stripes! moreover if someone who didn't have the necessary game knowledge/experience did such a thing they likely wouldn't last long which would make it an issue that solves itself in fairly short order.

Bottom line, the mechanism of add points when you play is quite sensible. You can already swap from credits to monster points and get 64 monster points for a day's monstering which is not much different to the 75 suggested upthread. Suppose the Caves tried a short-term deal where you could swap 1 credit for 3 monster points... meaning 76 monster points for a day's monstering (double-length), would this be a reasonable experiment?

Neil in particular, when you do your four-day the ref-team might just let you add monster points in advance on the basis of the extended length of the adventure. Think that's what happened on the 3-day we did. This would seem more likely to solve your immediate issue though I would suggest that bunging all those monster points onto a character on 20% is probably not the best plan. Wait for your rebirth... then you can add 75 points first time you play and 25 each time you play after that, plus cash monster points in for grulls and items, this is plenty, what's the problem? Only if you are literally monstering twice as often as you play are you going to run out of things to spend monster points on, and the Caves doesn't need that ratio from the majority of players, and the people who monster in that ratio are probably teenagers and students doing it for the credits.

For the avoidance of doubt, my arguing about this has no bearing on my impending 4-day (i mentioned it as an example) I couldn't benefit from a change like this at the moment anyway.

I can envisage a mechanic whereby the CMT can police how many times you add monster points when monstering instead of when playing... namely simply put solid lines around the monster points you're adding onto your card when you write them in, and/or use a special pen colour (say, red) now reserved for monster points.




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MattWest
post Jul 1 2013, 09:22 AM
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From a certain perspective it could disrupt people's sense of disbelief. "And here we are in the Real Man's No Max of December 2017. On my left, Thor. On my right, Gimly. Over in the corner is Watching Owl, and goodness me, Marcus Blunt has made it to 7,800 points and is brave enough to give it a go. But who's that character standing in front of us, the 25,000 point monstrosity with every published ability he could get because he had never adventured before so didn't get any non-standards passed, who somehow we've never even heard of, as if he had just popped into existence out of nowhere?"

People who have played their way up to, say, Table 10 territory can't always be picky about monsters (though sometimes whinging is heard when monsters are very green indeed) but they are definitely going to go on dungeon implicitly expecting a certain standard of roleplay and competence from their fellow players. It's not just that their character's safety depends on support from other characters, it's also the roleplay thing. Characters at that level have, by necessity, a lot of history to them.

Plus, they've lost res chance and been exposed to risks. And they've had to buy things that may prove sub-optimal later on but were needed at the time. 3,510 monster points might be the only way to play a True Djinn...

The thresholds are set at fixed intervals precisely so that people are sometimes near the top of the threshold, sometimes nearer the bottom, so everyone gets a chance to shine. If people who can monster regularly always get to be at the top of the threshold, without facing any risk to get there... it might be a bit grating for the people who pay to play and thus financially support the club. Everyone's contribution is needed. I already feel more than equally valued when I monster.

Lastly, item inflation is a bad thing, because more power for one set of characters just means more of an arms race, more numbers for everyone and more complexity all round - this system has been around for 30+ years, and we want it to be around for another 30+ years, without becoming as convoluted as my typical posts.


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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Hulud
post Jul 1 2013, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE(MattWest @ Jul 1 2013, 10:22 AM) *
From a certain perspective it could disrupt people's sense of disbelief. "And here we are in the Real Man's No Max of December 2017. On my left, Thor. On my right, Gimly. Over in the corner is Watching Owl, and goodness me, Marcus Blunt has made it to 7,800 points and is brave enough to give it a go. But who's that character standing in front of us, the 25,000 point monstrosity with every published ability he could get because he had never adventured before so didn't get any non-standards passed, who somehow we've never even heard of, as if he had just popped into existence out of nowhere?"

People who have played their way up to, say, Table 10 territory can't always be picky about monsters (though sometimes whinging is heard when monsters are very green indeed) but they are definitely going to go on dungeon implicitly expecting a certain standard of roleplay and competence from their fellow players. It's not just that their character's safety depends on support from other characters, it's also the roleplay thing. Characters at that level have, by necessity, a lot of history to them.

Plus, they've lost res chance and been exposed to risks. And they've had to buy things that may prove sub-optimal later on but were needed at the time. 3,510 monster points might be the only way to play a True Djinn...

The thresholds are set at fixed intervals precisely so that people are sometimes near the top of the threshold, sometimes nearer the bottom, so everyone gets a chance to shine. If people who can monster regularly always get to be at the top of the threshold, without facing any risk to get there... it might be a bit grating for the people who pay to play and thus financially support the club. Everyone's contribution is needed. I already feel more than equally valued when I monster.

Lastly, item inflation is a bad thing, because more power for one set of characters just means more of an arms race, more numbers for everyone and more complexity all round - this system has been around for 30+ years, and we want it to be around for another 30+ years, without becoming as convoluted as my typical posts.



I'm grateful you stopped short of saying "Valentine", your point is well made although I stand by the notion that it would be self policing but don't accept that someone could get 25000 monster points ahead of knowing the system inside out and having actually played to a very high level as well. Your example is in extremis.

Think about it for a minute, if you monstered every weekend both Saturday and Sunday you could put 4000 points onto a character in a year but not actually get to play at all, it would take 5 years of monstering every Saturday and Sunday for over 6 years to make a 25k point character this way and surely rule 6 or 7 or whatever it is, applies?

The majority of players seem to go to the caves every 4-6 weeks apart from a small core and taking myself as an example the most points you are talking about are probably less than 400 a year (nevermind 4000)

I can't say I am totally convinced (although I'm forced to reconsider a bit) I struggle to accept how game breaking it is painted to be, not just by you.

I take your point about item inflation, it seems reasonable but again for items of real significance you need to be quite high on the tables and we are talking years of solid monstering to get there.

Appreciate the dialogue smile.gif


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MattWest
post Jul 1 2013, 10:49 AM
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I honestly didn't specifically have Valentine in mind, nor do I think you would be the worst offender!

Another thought. If you had say 2000 monster points spare and you bunged 500 on a character you had ref-pointed to 8th, would the fear of death as that character be slightly less compelling than if you had literally fought your way up?


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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Hulud
post Jul 1 2013, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE(MattWest @ Jul 1 2013, 11:49 AM) *
I honestly didn't specifically have Valentine in mind, nor do I think you would be the worst offender!

Another thought. If you had say 2000 monster points spare and you bunged 500 on a character you had ref-pointed to 8th, would the fear of death as that character be slightly less compelling than if you had literally fought your way up?


No it wouldn't but I don't think (unless I've missed something) anyone is suggesting that people be able to put 'more' points on a character at a time but rather they be able to put monsters points (with the already in place limitations on numbers of points transferable) on a day where a person is monstering rather than having to wait until a day where the character is being played.

Thus, a character that is 2400 points could have 50 monster points added to it on a day where the player is monstering. Allowing significantly more points to be put on at a time is a different discussion.

This i think is where BBB's point comes in about an initial upturn that gradually dwindles to old levels. My point is that it represents a change that would have a direct and repeating impact where members who are faced with a particular choice will now find the 'monstering' choice more palatable and therefore more likely to be taken.

sorry if hadn't made that clear.


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GNW
post Jul 1 2013, 12:00 PM
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I not sure of these suggestions but food for thought.

1) Mix things up a little, current numerical limits still in force but instead of on the day you play they can only be added on a day when you monster. This means to get the benefit of monster points you need to monster and it is still limited. If you wanted to catch up your colleagues or work through a expensive multiclass it would be possible but require an extended stint at monstering. If you have been part of a campaign and get low on RL funds you can now mitigate how far you drop behind your fellow mercs by coming to monster it etc.

As monster points ammounts are still limited it shouldn't create a massive problem with makes.

2) If the club wanted to unrestrict the ammount of monster points that could be added per session and were worried about the rise in never played "Making" alts this could be dealt with by making it an opt in scheme, where to apply unlimited monster points you would have your card permenantly marked with "No Makes" and from that point on the charcter couldnt make anything (or anything that wasnt personalised to themselves).

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Ryan
post Jul 1 2013, 12:02 PM
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I would also argue while it is important to know your character I learned more about the system monstering at 5-10K than I ever did from playing...
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marwoodbramwell
post Jul 1 2013, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE(Ryan @ Jul 1 2013, 01:02 PM) *
I would also argue while it is important to know your character I learned more about the system monstering at 5-10K than I ever did from playing...


This.

I personally was sad to see the end of the experiment where booking on as a monster team in good time got the monsters and ARef 10 extra monster points which seemed like a good idea all round.

Also, if there is a discussion about club membership and how to increase it the LASAR players as a group have some feedback . It might be possible to reach out to other universities to see if they'd be interested? We are driving down from Cambridge for events and there are very good reasons why it is worth the trip for us (weather proof LARP that fits round university terms better than field systems, the nice fit between the size of minibuses and dungeons etc). We like to think we've done a fair share of monstering, both for credits and to learn the system as well. We can't be the only students who'd be interested in the system.

J


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SamR
post Jul 1 2013, 10:26 PM
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I'm happy with the idea of adding monster points only when monstering - to a max of 75pts or whatever. Best idea to come out of this conversation.

Still gobsmacked thatnpeople are concerned if we increase monster point rewards people will stsrt cracking out tbl 11/12 characters - who cares if it encourages people to monster.

Bssically, there are a whole group of players who would be incentivised to monster if they got a similar reward to playing.

What is fundamentally the biggest danger to the system/future of the game?

The fact that regular monsters are potentially rewarded with some higher points characters?

Or

The fact that this weekend there are 30 players booked and 2 crew? This is sadly becoming the norm, I feel we are already seeing the impact here with overlands being regularly moved to caves.

S
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Abel
post Jul 1 2013, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE(SamR @ Jul 1 2013, 11:26 PM) *
The fact that this weekend there are 30 players booked and 2 crew? This is sadly becoming the norm, I feel we are already seeing the impact here with overlands being regularly moved to caves.

S


To be fair there is a 3 day on this weekend, with a large number of players and monsters to boot sad.gif


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MattWest
post Jul 2 2013, 10:05 AM
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A lot of monsters tend to turn up on the day.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

It obviously hinders planning, but then again some people may simply be unwilling to commit to monstering in advance, at least except on rare occasions.

There seems to me to be limited room for increasing the rewards for monstering but if there were any should it be limited to people who book in advance? (For instance, saying that if you book in advance you can opt on the day of monstering to swap all your credits from that day for points then get 3 monster points per swapped credit instead of 2, just for that swap.)

=====

If you add monster points every time you [edited] monster, there's no limit to how many monster points you can add between times you play the character. Whether you add the monster points all in one go, or every Saturday for two months, makes not much difference. You're still dodging the danger of dying while you get enough points to hit your golden zone / the top of the threshold / whatever, and also not being forced to learn more about your character and develop their non-points aspects (accomplishments, history, personality, legal problems e.g. outlawing/felonies, friends/enemies made, grulls gained/spent, armour uses crossed off, finding your own tactics for using their abilities, etc.). [Plus, less convincingly admittedly, there's the possibility of people spending hundreds of points on a spend then realising they don't like the character or can't use the abilities effectively - they haven't had the chance to find that out earlier forced upon them by having to play the character.]

=====

These people who would love to monster if only the rewards were "fairer", would that increase their overall participation at the Caves or would it come at the expense of booking onto fewer events as a paying player?


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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