Pre 8th club.... Options

[atem55]

Hi,

This is coming from a returning player that last played 20+ years ago, where it seemed a momentous achievement to get to 8th level! I was on my first new player pre-8th on Sunday.

Admittedly i had done a reasonable amount of reading on the forums before the day and had picked up alot of info. about the post 8th system (which i knew NOTHING about when i first played) but it doesnt seem too much of an ask to me to teach people the basic points information on day 1. I think there is less available to buy earlier on? Possibly there could be some concept of templates which suggest typical builds for the first 250/500 or whatever points?

If someone has already bought the books and wants to do the research then thats great, they can pick as normal, but it would make it alot easier for a new player that wanted a particular type of warrior that a template fits? I don't yet know enough about what abilities are available for what class to suggest some template but i'm sure someone with more knowledge could create a selection of 2 or 3 per class fairly easily?

Carl

[GNW]

I think i broadly support removing pre 8th.

But i do take the point made about having a place to learn for new players or people learning something new.

So how about scrap pre 8th System but introduce an 'Apprentice status':

Any new 8th level character can choose to be an "apprentice" when their card is first issued.

Apprentices can accumlate points upto a pre set threshold (perhaps 250 perhaps 500) but cannot spend points.

You could run apprentice dungeons which would be easier to stat as everyone will be striaght 8th(they may have points but they cant have spent them) and there would be an expectation there would a degree of learning going on for some party members.

Apprentice status could be removed by request at the end of any dungeon or upon reaching the saved points cap.

Rebirths etc could be banned from apprentice dungeons or some other restriction.

[Trickyz]

I would scrap it,

As per many others it seems to be unnecessary part of the system and adds a layer of complexity for new players in an already very complex system.

[Onasuma]

Some of my most enjoyable dungeons have been pre 8ths. I dont see any reason to get rid of it, the mechanics already exist to bypass it if needed.

Pete Long

[gormaden]

Devils advocate - Regarding the "enjoyable dungeon" was that because of the simplicity of the system or the dungeon/ref?

(I agree that sometimes simplicity actually enhances the game - Roleplay > power gaming for me)

Some of my most enjoyable dungeons have been pre 8ths. I dont see any reason to get rid of it, the mechanics already exist to bypass it if needed.

Pete Long

[Onasuma]

Devils advocate - Regarding the "enjoyable dungeon" was that because of the simplicity of the system or the dungeon/ref?

(I agree that sometimes simplicity actually enhances the game - Roleplay > power gaming for me)

Its absolutely an issue of simplicity feeding into everything else. Not that Labby can be considered simple even at pre 8th, but it is more accessable.

[Helsvell]

Its absolutely an issue of simplicity feeding into everything else. Not that Labby can be considered simple even at pre 8th, but it is more accessable.

I think having separate systems for pre and post 8th adds complexity to the system. Removing pre-8th and having only one system would make it simpler.

Thanks,

Peter

[Onasuma]

I wildly disagree. Labyrinthe has a unique feel to its events. Being able to experience that in a simplified version of the rules - pre 8th, or whatever alternative is put in place - enables people to not feel instantly overwhelmed while they learn what the system feels like. Dropping someone in at 8th, giving them locs and tblp, 15 spells to learn, reductive armour, percentiles, and a dozen effects is too much. I know we've all been doing it for years, or even decades, but the vast majority of LRPers havent. Give them a low-key environment to learn how the game feels is more important than dropping a vast amount of rules on people to learn.

Pete Long

[Martinj]

It seems to me that there are two things at play here, the experience of existing players (many of whom have the ability to skip the pre 8th via ref points or rebirth/reincarnation) and the experience of new players (whether totally new, new but experienced LRPers or returning cavies).

Any change (and particularly some of the changes suggested after Lee's initial post) should be viewed in terms of how it affects the experience of each of those groups. I would also suggest that there should be no need for changes to anything in the recently published books as a result of this change (the player's handbook is a different matter).

All that said - personally I would start new characters at 8th level. I think that is likely to create a far better playing experience for existing cavies. I think the change in experience for new players is probably debatable. As a returning Laby player, I would have far preferred to start at 8th level - even though I had limited experience of playing post 8th previously. There are many classes that massively benefit from being 8th rather than 4th and that would have significantly enhanced my enjoyment of the game. I don't think there's too much gain for the club in worrying about people who don't like complex systems - those people are likely to drop out pretty quickly, as one of Laby's USPs is its complexity. Unless there's a secret gang of people who only play pre-8ths that I've never heard about!

As a result, I would do away with ref points and just use them as monster points instead. I would make monster points useable for offsetting level loss for makes. That's simpler for the desk and supports a level playing field. I would be surprised if anyone actually chooses to ref just for the ref points.

I would also write some basic IC-ish spell books for the elemental colours and certain miracles, bind them in cheap faux leather and make them available for new players only. Maybe chuck some monster points at one or more people who take on the burden of making some. They don't need to have everything in them, or look perfect - but something basic for a new player to effectively use as a crib sheet.

Make everyone's first 500pts a flexi spend. That will give new players (and anyone getting used to a new class) ample time to get used to a spend and consult with others rather than risk making major errors.

Have dungeons which are straight 8th only. Ban the use of items and other equipment on these. Allow people to play these with any character upto 500pts (ie in their Flexi period) - as long as they don't have any abilities on that dungeon. This would also allow more experienced players (eg with a random 200pt character) to play alongside newer players. That makes it easier to fill those dungeons.

Introduce an optional skype call with a new player to talk about their character, choose guilds, pre-write a battleboard (email to them) and talk through abilities (email a copy of the spell/prayer book you'll give them on the day).

[gormaden]

Agreed with Martin on the flexi, no items, pre the 500 point. Lots of people are on same wave length on this.

However what I don't agree is that "one of Laby's USPs is its complexity"
Where is may be true, but with who? With the "more experienced" limited players? Surely we need to look at beyond our current player base in order to keep Laby alive.
Otherwise you just turn it into a rather elitist club that will not see out the next 10 years.

Just my thought

[fatteacher]

Not everyone has Ref-points. How about allowing people without them to use monster points to level up from 4th to 8th (not any of this silly 'must pay from 1st level even though we start at 4th' lark though). This would allow experienced players to avoid the low level dungeons if they want.
Would it be possible to make a rule that new characters and their cards could only be started one per day (if you want early points apps) or even on the day if no need for points apps?
I am for keeping the low level system but not making any major changes as it 'ain't broke'

[jj420]

So I'm a reasonably new player to labby.

I started on the spiter theme day and we started at strate 8th. It's was great everyone on the day had fun and many of us returned to cary on playing.

Imo I would say scrap the pre 8th stuff. Going starte 8th feels easyer to work out stats when explaing to new people I bring.
Every 250 iv played as had great reffs and monsters who help the new players out with rules and things.

Just my thorts as a new guy

JJ

[FlorenceWarren]

I'm in favour of scrapping the pre-8th system. Can't really add anything that hasn't already been said. When I first started at Labyrinthe in 2015, I found it really odd that it had both a level system and a points system (Wow! 2000 past!? That's a lot of levels!) and literally had no concept of the points system. If it hadn't been that I wound up on Jules' campaign just by a sort of happy accident, I wouldn't have known what to book onto after the pre-8th.

From people from other systems or even people who haven't larped before, the jump from pre-8th to Max 250 is very unclear. You literally have to have someone tell you about it, have the confidence to ask about it or like me, just get lucky.

Flo

[JonMace]

Scrap pre 8th, it really is out dated.

Could a basic player i.e. have a different character card (the same as the post 8th) but say yellow in colour, which gifts a little extra time, consideration and maybe some abilities.

!st idea is for a newbie priest, woud truly get heal dependent and the ref work it out for them so they cannot over cast.

The Idea is just for 1st characters and only stays yellow till 500 points

[Helsvell]

Maybe have pre-completed characters for new players? St Michael Priest , Human warrior, Elf wizard etc

[Jasper]

I'm probably alone, or as close as makes no difference, in liking the pre-8th system. There are all sorts of nuances of stats which are missed at even 250pts.
I do think the terminology could be tidied up, as the difference between 1st to 8th level and points thresholds is certainly an unnecessary level of complexity for a new player, but then so would be expecting them to memorise twenty or thirty spell verbals* and mana costs (before you even get to casting damage).

I think simply making the pre-8th system optional would be fine and require no rewriting of any rules.


J
*esp when so few experienced players bother to use verbals correctly/at all

[BennyB]

I like Jasper's idea of making the pre-eighth system optional my only fear is that optional means no one actually doing any dungeons.

That said I think I just saw Jasper volunteering to ref some pre-eighth dungeons.

Ben

[chrisC]

I agree with Jasper as well. Why get rid of it when some newer players will struggle with all the abilities 8th level brings. There are (have been) theme type events where you can start at 8th if that is what you want and no harm in having more of them.

I do think it a good idea to give pre 8ths a level after each section and possibly a fresh battleboard after each section as well though.

[NickMonsterSands]

Personally i like pre-8th.
I can try something out, decide if i like it or not with out having to go spend loads on kit.

It's useful for any sort of power user as well, they wont have a load of verbals dumped on them all at once, instead they get to use the same few low spells over and over allowing them to learn some core abilities that many players take for granter, this is great if you have difficulty with verbals, its why beyond my 1st character battlepriest i wont play any caster types except the neuronicist (yay no verbals!) i started.

"oh just write them in a book or on a scroll..." some one said in the past. Do you know how hard it is to read in the caves with bad eye sight whilst being attacked...

Another idea could be using pre-8th (which would then lose all sense of meaning because there wont be a 1-8 any more, which there kind of isnt now anyway as its 4-8) for half day events and tasters to get people hooked or trying different classes they don't know much about at all.
Pre-8th all day dungeons are a bit of a bore for those who cant fight and only have a very low number of power points for anything. By lunch time you've spent all your mana etc and for the rest of the event you're just dead weight to the party outside of being a meat shield, liability or roleplay opportunity. If you know about the system then you tend to save most of your points for the latter half of the day as usually some bosses or monsters can only be killed by "last hit XYZ".

[graham1980]

I am in favour of keeping the pre 8th system, mostly as a learning curve for new players getting grips, however if a change is nesessary how about cleaning up the the low end of the system from 4-8th to 1-4th this would certainly make things a lot less confusing. for any mathimatical equations (such as skills and casting levels) increase these factors by 4. i think what confuses most new players most is the whole "but why do i start at 4th"