Riki asked to discuss it so I am happy to facalitite this.
I am happy to answer any questions about my vote and why.
I have also invited lady Neko panama sama and Woodrow sama to join this discussion.
Lord Naga
Dayimo of the Snake clan
Warlord of the Shadowlands
In short we just travelled to the first village and hosted a peace meeting between clans of the Jade Empire and tribes of the Thun. A pact was made and peace between the tribes and the Jade Empire was bound in the ancient way.
The Snake cannot support this peace treaty as the lord of the Oyrx tribe,is Khudalch the lord of the shadowlands. So my vote was a simple no.
Lord Naga
Thank you, Lord.
Things are not simple.
This would be the 3rd major time you have been the un-united of the Council in decisions of import and gone against the emperors wishes. You were not even in the room for a good amount of the talks, in fact a break was insisted so you could return to 'simply' vote no.
Ningyou Dansu
Snake said no. simple.
In fact you said very little at all during the whole proceedings, it is wonderful that you left for a moment to keep thing safe, even if it didn't exactly work.
You have started this discussion on Lord Riki's request, but you have said very little and explained even less.
I pointed out who your answer of no wasn't simple.
I was there for a task, It appears you were not, that seems simple Lord Naga.
I have no questions, simple.
Ningyou Dansu
It is simple .
Khudulch lord of the shadowlands clearly stated his want and reason for peace , so he could attack the celestial heavens and kill Riley sama the Celestrial emperor. By making peace with the tribes and the Jade empire he would only be fighting on one front and can rage his war on the heavens ,my grandfather and his Kami.
He is the mans wake we have been following over the last few years and is responsible for so much I am still connecting all of the dots of where he has been and what he has done. The most recent one was the kami of calm who had Una not sacfriced herself for us at the dawn then we would be in a very bad place.
When he launches his attack on the heavens will you breach your pact with the thun?
Will you defend the kami from his 30,000 oni will you break your pact ?
While I stand with the Snake down to the last man as he assaults the gate of the heavens will you break your pact?
But you will no have to my Dear Dansu for we will do our duty as we have been tasked to do by the Jade Emperor.
On why I did not speak much I was ordered by the Emperors Honour not to attack Khudulch and I had so much rage inside me it very much clouded my judgment without the kami of calms touch blood would have been split. So I decided that remaining silent allowed you to get the peace treaty the lands needed.
With regards to your insult about me I demand satifaction as that is the second time and I should have asked the first when you called me greedy.
Lord Naga
Lords and fellow council members,
While I am sure that peace between the Thun tribe (including the Oryx) and the Jade empire will secure a lasting peace in the mortal realms, I am sure that with so many celestial being as members of mortal clans that Khudluch would only attack the celestial heavens with the hope hundreds of thousands of the free Oni and beast at his disposal and leave his 30,000 oni in the Oryx tribe "at home" otherwise he risks breaking the treaty himself, and as a creature so used to contracts as he is he will be clever about it but will not risk a blatant breach of contract. Should we be asked to come to the aid of the heavens it should not breach the contract as we will be fighting the shadowlands and its lord. Not the Oryx tribe. While I see the duality, I am sure that the fact the celestial emperor and his duality with the Emperor in Jade, will surely counted among the same "loophole".
This fighting the enemy and their lord will be as simple as any other invaders, hmmm perhaps I should have been there to conference with Woodrow-sama on how the emperor would have wanted this ironed out...
Sosen Oku
Jade Ambassador
Yusaki-sama,
You are going to need to be clear before demanding satisfaction on a Daimyo who's reputation is leaps and bounds beyond reproach, when you say you have taken insult for something that even when rereading what has been said no one else can see the insult. I don't think any misgivings we given in your direction more than you have shown no union with the other lords of this land and that the late Lord Riki has called into question your loyalities with the Emperor and his wishes. You along with the other lords of clans were sent to make peace and you didn't, in direct opposition with the will of the emperor. No one has called you greedy nor insulted you or your honour.
Now we know each other well Yusai-sama and I know personally were you place your loyalities and I respect that greatly, you keep my wife, child and clan safe from the evils that would sweep this land. But that aside you were tasked by the emperor to do one thing and you would not. Riki-Sama is a person who put the Emperor before all things and with that in mind he calls into question your place amongst the council. No honour is slighted here, trust me, you know I am the first to reach for a sword, but this is not the time. Try to see thing from the other Daimyos point of view, perhaps it is time to step down from the council and let a diplomat take your place, you and I are the same my friend, we are warriors and killers of men. I knew when it was time to let the correct person to take the reins and find us the peace we do not seek, but want dearly for our loved ones.
Don't take the road to war, seek the peace of the fields.
Kazan Toshimoko
Done with titles
For those that do not know me in the inner council, I am Haiyū Yang-To. I take the place of Lord Rikki at his request as the Voice of the Jade Council.
As such, it is my duty to voice a number of questions surrounding this subject. The answers of which are important in that they will serve as anchoring points with which I shall base my stance on the matter.
Firstly, and I believe it was mentioned a number of times by many that participated in the peace talks in question, it was the Emperor's wish that peace be made. If there is any one that would take the stance that their duty, or responsibilities, is of greater importance than the wish of the Emperor, I request that they make this known now.
Secondly, and I direct this towards the clans who were unable to attend the peace talks, the peace that was brokered was offered between the Jade Empire, the thu'un and the clans who attended, and specified:
"A broad peace, between the Jade Empire, the clans and tribes...with the understanding that the finer details of the agreements be made in good faith between the above parties, and that the agreement be protected under the henceforth referred to as Caveat Seven, in that the actions of said 'dicks' may be dealt with appropriately without breaking the treaty brokered today. Such is the Emperor's will."
This is an excerpt of the treaty agreed and burned as an offering, the agreement which Amlalt and Avral were quoted saying "we should be proud of what you have achieved".
My question is offered to the clans who were not present: Are there any clans who would not have agreed to the treaty?
Finally, I ask this to Lord Naga directly, as I asked this once at the conference and wish to be sure that your answer is as clear now as it was then. When you specified you would never ally with the Oryx tribe, were you speaking as yourself personally or as the intent of the clan. Meaning, if you as current Daimyo of the Snake, were to step down as clan Daimyo, would your new Daimyo, and thus the clan be bound by the same convictions, or are they merely bound because it is your own wish to do so?
I await your answers, and shall remain to answer any posed to myself as well.
With honour,
Haiyū Yang-To
Voice of the Jade council
Ear of the People
Daimyo of the Jade Dragon Clan
Please forgive me, but could you please inform me what you find as an Insult?
Also please remind me when I called you 'greedy'
Ningyou Dansu
Tosh
You know me well I don't wish I fight between us but you know I would not stop with you and I ask you not to stand in my way this time and I will give her a chance that I would not give others.
When my loyalty and duty is questioned then I will not stop till that issue has been resolved.
I have done my duty to the Emperor and will continue to do so.
I dream of tea houses but war is apon us and the heavens will be attacked soon
Naga
I have no recollection of calling you greedy and power hungry when you took that accursed sword, however I felt you shouldn't, as did many others and this was made clear to you at the time. I have also made it clear what I feel should be done with the sword time and time again. I have told you in person I don't think you should wield it. Calling someone 'Greedy and power hungry' doesn't seem like something I would say, but please remind me exactly when this was said and maybe I shall recall better.
I disagree how second part is taken for an insult. How is stating facts to what occurred and how it looked be an insult. Maybe you were given another task other than peace? I state again I saw you vote against it. Is this an insult?
I didn't see you hold the spoon other than to state who you were... if I am mistaken there, there were indeed many in the room, please correct me.
Ningyou Dansu
Yang-to
The snake will be there and we will defend you from the shadows, if I am dead the next will take my place. Regardless of how you see or treat us we will still stand and die and fight to the last. We will do our juty to the mortal realms and the heavens.
My wish is to drink tea and sake, my juty is to defend the land at all cost and that is the emperors instruction to the Snake.
I see you are ignorant to the way the world actually works and I'll excuse you this only time.
Naga
For me it is simple Lord Naga. You disagreed with the Emperors wishes, I think you know what needs to be done, unless of cause I have missed the picture or aim of what we were to complete.
Neko Panama
I have never said your are lying, but calling ANYONE greedy and power hungry is not something I would say.... (ooc: I cant search the forum, never works and I never directly insult anyone as Dansu normally, I think I said it off game)
I have never insulted you about the events, but I was given a task, you happen to have voted against it. Believe it or not, I was indeed saddened by this, as such I didn't however feel the the answer should have been simple, politics isn't simple and it was a mission of politics. I wanted more explanation, maybe it was not clear. You started this discussion after all.
But being saddened by your choice may have caused my word to be more forceful than intended and I will apologize for that.
I do not want a 'chance' lord Naga. I want respect as do we all.
Maybe I misheard you in the Dragons treasure horde maybe something whispered in my ear.
I accept your apology if you need to know any details behind my actions then just send me a private missive.
Naga
I welcome you to these halls Neko Panama.
I too echo your stance on this matter. When the wish of the emperor is undermined, there must be consequence.
What is the stance of The Emperor's Honor on this matter?
It is possible that I might have been persuaded otherwise, however that door closes when civil conversations turn to open insults.
I remind those of the council here that when this council was formed it was agreed by all that any who causes harm to another member, and that there would be consequence to this action also.
With honor,
Haiyū Yang-To
Voice of the Jade council
Ear of the People
Daimyo of the Jade Dragon Clan
My stance is as always.
The true judge of a mans honour is himself.
Woodrow
Your Duel is accepted
Naga
Have you been insulted Yan-Toe?
Also are you saying the laws of the council come before the jade code?
Naga
Lord Naga,
I had asked you, in a civil manner to clarify your position on this matter, something important so that those that were not present can understand better as well as allow myself as Daimyo of the Jade Dragon decide which side we should stand on, and you have accused me of being "ignorant of the way the world actually works".
Unless you are saying that the world actually works with people in positions of political power making decisions without being certain of the stances of those involved - which I highly doubt - then your comment was false, and damaging to my reputation and the reputation of my ability to lead my clan.
Never did I state that the work of the Snake was integral to the Empire. You appear to have assumed that I have said that and retorted with an insult. What I was trying to ascertain was whether or not you, and the Snake as a clan, would be better suited to pursue your goals and orders as a clan apart from the council. Then, you would no longer feel bound by requirements of the council to hold a unified voice, and the rest of the council need not be at constant odds with you and your clan's interests.
Once again I fail to see where ignorance in the situation has arisen and caused you to comment on it.
With regards to your second comment, I have not, said anything of the sort. Both the code and our council's laws apply. Should anyone be forced to duel another within the council for their honor, we as a council could not stop it. However after such a duel was concluded the actions of engaging in a duel would then need to be addressed as per our agreements when the council was formed.
With honor,
Haiyū Yang-To
Voice of the Jade council
Ear of the People
Daimyo of the Jade Dragon Clan
Yes I was saying that you don't seem to know how the world works. My comment was not false unless your calling me liar?
Lord Naga
Lord Naga,
What gave you that impression? Asking a civil question on where the Snake stood on the talks and if the views were your own or that of your clan?
Merely talking is enough to warrant you throwing insults at me and my clan? Accusing me of ignorance is an insult.
I do not call you a liar. I call that you are wrong in your assumption of my ignorance. Furthermore I call your open assumption to be insulting to me and my clan.
Haiyū Yang-To
Voice of the Jade council
Ear of the People
Daimyo of the Jade Dragon Clan
Well we cannot let a insult go unanswered.
Name your location and we can settle this with honor.
Or if you wish to use a tanto to regain your honor your welcome to follow Rikis example.
Lord Naga
Indeed, we cannot. It is a shame you choose not to retract your words.
It seems that the Daimyo of the Snake is at odds with not one, but two of the council. It may be time to call a vote among the council to determine whether or not the Snake should be allowed to continue on it's way undeterred by the shackles of the council.
That would certainly resolve the issue of duelling within the clan.
Haiyū Yang-To
Voice of the Jade council
Ear of the People
Daimyo of the Jade Dragon Clan
We will arrange the place for the duel.
Yes it's already being discussed I will add you to the private chambers in the morning
Naga
You that have thrown insults to all that disagree with you, and then at those who had no stance on the matter at all, and then demanded satisfaction by duelling in the full knowledge you would win in a duel of the sword over a wielder of words.
So be it. We shall make arrangements in the morning.
Haiyū Yang-To
Voice of the Jade council
Ear of the People
Daimyo of the Jade Dragon Clan
The Emperor banned duelling for this crazy reason, and the second it was relented upon, the lords are all ready to stand in a line to kill each other.
What has become of the wonderful Jade Empire, the land which I love so much.
Please most honourable Emperor, intervene on this madness, before you must build your caste system back up from a pile of corpses!
Sosen Oku
Jade Abassador
No one here has openly insulted you Lord Naga. In return you appear to have tried to encourage people to find insult in your words?
I am unsure if this is your wish or not, to have a queue of people to Duel? I hope I am mistaken.
Ningyou Dansu
To add to this it was made clear that it was the emperors wish and not will.
It always amazes me how many people know the "Emporer's will" and use this to drive their view to the exclusion of others wishes.
Did the Emporer request we make a peace? Yes
Did the Emporer say the deal we arrived at was his desired outcome? No
Our deal was only one peace, another could have been found. One that was more acceptable to Lord Naga. Lord Naga voted no but that does not mean he is going against the Emporer's will. It means the negotiations at that point were not acceptable to him.
I am sure if you all sit down and share some tea, a sensible outcome with honour restored will be found. Discussion by written word are never satisfactory and often lead to misinterpretation
Lord Naga, I humbly ask you agree to tea with the Jade Council before any duel and I ask the other lord to consider my words
I suspect honour for all remains intact
Su
Ancestor of the Snake Clan
Su
I will happily sit down with the council for tea to discuss this. All apart from the fool of a lion who is in league with the oni.
Naga
For slights against my Lord's Honour, I Zu Wang Seung-Jean challenge Ningyou Dansu, Kazan Toshimoko, and Haiyu Yang-To.
On Starsday, I will be waiting on the wall between us and the Shadowlands. For those who choose not to attend me, I shall attend them and any who wish to protect them. Please understand that this is not a call for debate or your opinion, and begging only lowers oneself.
May Ting-Bo look favourably upon you all come the dawn of Sunsday.
=======================
OOC: I'll be down on Saturday, with a Kimono, a Katana, a battleboard, and an old school love of this oriental system. An area will be set aside during lunch, and it would be helpful to have confirmations (just post OOC on this string)
Please feel free to react in character as your character would (as have I) with the leeway of "I cannot make it due to IRL, lets pick another day". I am quite happy to discuss the merits and flaws of forum based smack talk in a system where people (regardless of their level [kudos Dave Hurrell]) avenge insults in exactly this way. I would also like to add the disclaimers that I wasn't involved in the three day, OOC I like all of my opponents, and this is a reaction from what I have read in the string
Pickle will b ur secnd miss lady Dansu if u want it. Dough Pickle aint round dis starsdy. Pickle no like bullies.
Angry Pickle
=====================
OOC: I cant make saturday and Ive got no problem getting beaten to death...
Infact Pickle will stand for all of dem nd we can do 1 fight for all.
Dat sound gud too u Wang?
Serious Pickle
I am sure that if we have indeed slighted or insulted Lord Naga he would call this himself?
I am not begging, simply wishing to clarify.
Ningyou dansu
May I politely ask, why, other than trying to talk a friend down from a course a darkness I am being challenged? At no point have I insulted nor has Yusaki-sama expressed insult from my words. Also my lord Lady Dansu has been nothing but cordial and has in fact apologised for perceived slight and the apology was accepted. I will not speak for Lord Yang To of the dragon. I feel you are jumping to challenges that your lord does not require?
Hells, both your lord and I have drinks planned soon, do you truly think that he would need to to duel me if that was happening? Don't get me wrong, I love a good duel and have always hoped one day to challenge a swordsman such as you, but now is the time for words and diplomacy, not swords. That time will come, but it is not now.
Kazan Toshimoko
Ooc: either way me and Laura are in Malta from Friday, so no can do
OOC: ok i'm gonna go out and say it. This has gone beyond roleplay and has become complete bullshet, what started with some very cool roleplay, quickly spiralled out of control by one person deciding that stats meant they could happily stat taking offence and bringing it to "duels" or as we will call it "Stat murder". it went to and fro and then it honestly seemed that a resolution for all was found. Honestly look through this thread and apart from the Naga vs the Lion hash, there is NO OFFENCE given or intended beyond the need to kill someone who is 15.000 points less than the "offended" player. but that actually looked like it was resolved by roleplay and comradery. The another person who has too many points under there belts thinks they will beging it all again, because they can and there is no threat to them, oh other than losing to honour the first time round and pu ssying out and running off saying "nah I don't want to lose to roleplay, my stats mean I win so ner nerr". So i call bullshet
Frankly we can win this by simply playing your game, you are in different thresholds to us and will never get the chance to kill us and the threshold system means we will never have the real chance to do the duel and no system in the rules or stats says I can meet outside a paid for threshold dungeon with someone who is 15K+. so yeah not happening. "some reason when I turned up you werten't there" cus you couldn't book on, etc.
Stop this bull, just because you can win stats you know what that makes you? a bully and I'm sure The management would not condone any bulling in their game, I know I wouldn't. If you can accept the roleplay side of the game, stay out of it.
Jesus, it's like dealing with spoilt children...
Should any of those challenged wish a champion in a martial duel to the death, then I offer to act as such.
Should it be required, I can likely meet Zu Wang Seung-Jean San on the wall this Starsday.
Ri'Lek.
(OOC - John, I totally get your roleplay, and do respect how unbending and straight up you play your characters... but it is a bit pony offering out characters who are 10k plus less than sensai...)
Oi Ri'Lek! Pickle ready sed he will b a secund!
Pickle
(Ooc but I wanted to mock John and his inability to win a duel with a 3k character.)
((OOC: Just for the record, I'm still loving the role play here! My response is IC as Yang-To would never want a straight up fight with a warrior as he's not a fighting type and has to try and politic out of it where possible!))
Ri'Lek,
I do not deny that I am more a master of the word than the sword. Your offer to act as champion in this matter is accepted. Regardless of the outcome, know that you shall be well compensated for your actions. Let it also be known the Dragon owes you a favour.
Lord Naga, as Wang Seung-Jean appears to be duelling for your honour you wish this duel to settle our disagreement also?
With honour,
Haiyū Yang-To
Voice of the Jade council
Ear of the People
Daimyo of the Jade Dragon Clan
Pickle,
I am quite happy for you to champion - and will offer to second. Happy either way...
Ri'Lek.
(OOC - wouldn't want to deny you mocking opportunity
Hey Jules,
I am not sure who exactly this is aimed at, but am quite offended. I specifically went for an alternative roleplay type thing (ie dropping mists) which
I knew would not actually have any real game impact what so ever. It was all a bit of roleplay. So If I have offended you in anyway or you
perceive anything I have done as bullying then please let me know and I will walk away. At no point did I have any intention of taking
out someone massively lower points than me, or frankly causing upset.
Regards
Sarah
It's aimed at me and John ...
Thanks Jules,
I would not have wanted to cause a problem like that
I hate having to go out of character on this.
As explained my character is massively unstable, my alignment shifts,I have a evil sword telling me to kill everything,I've been kicked out my church,judged harshly by friends when it should have been a conversation.
Then get kicked out my guild , no wonder I'm taking pot shots and not calling back my attack dog.
The problem is simple we play a multilevel game in the same game setting,the fun and risk of playing a amslasian is knowing if you insult the big boys then they will come get you due to there and your restrictions. If not it's rubbish and people should now play one.
Do I throw my stats around - yes
Do I throw my status around - yes
Is Naga a bully yes totally if it gets his way! Am I?
I have always tried to stay ic and stick with my roleplay I've bended before eg didn't duel Dave last time but took 10% so we could all move on happily,didn't go to war when I should and comitted suppuku instead. I've bent and bended maybe I should not have but I wanted to play with my mates.
Sam
I was just going to call him off then it went all ooc.
So should I play my lvl 8 samurai then and start insulting people? You play a amlesian and the bigger fish will play. The meta should not come into play we have restrictions and they should.
Yeah the war is a RP thing as Naga is convinced the lion is working with the oni. Should I bend my RP just to play more dungeons?
I had not intended on playing Naga this year at all to be perfectly honest, I was not even keen on playing the 3 day. Naga is a massive pain in the arse that need handling as that Is how the character has developed over the last 20 years. My views are different as are his priorities it's going to cause issue easpically when people do stuff like ask him to leave or not do council dungeons -,they are triggers for the character.
Yep I have the new character running just busy reffing!
Ooc - so as an outsider to this whole thing I have been following the thread with eager eyes as it has been quality gold. In my opinion Sam has been IC with the whole thing. Regardless of you insulted him or not if he wants to take it that way IC then that's his perogative... As much as there are dungeon thresholds you can't use them as an excuse of getting in the way of roleplay... If you choose to take the roleplay personally then that's your choice. Is Sam lots more points than you / the other people involved? Yes. Does that mean he should let it get in the way of his roleplay? Absolutely not. Points are an ooc thing don't let that get in the way. Did I give Argoth lip as a 2k warrior? Yes I did. Did I care that he could kill me at any point because he was lots more points than me? No.
It's not ooc bullying when it's IC? No. (I'm not saying that people don't do this - but Sam defo hasn't.)
Don't loose friends over a game - it's not worth it. Everything could have been solved completely IC and Sam wasn't the one who made it Ooc. I may have lost what I was trying to say as I am demolishing a Fino Pitta (it's a new trial product and if you happen to live near one of our trial restaurants - go and try it, you won't be disappointed!)
Make up, commit sepukku and be happy.
Jc
In my limited knowledge of the Amles side of the system and understanding of the honor codes etc, if Naga feels offended, then he is offended and that needs resolving.
I never see points as a factor in Laby when it comes to restrictions, if you have a character that 'has to kill all demons', and you're on a unbalanced as a 3K vs a 20K, you still have to fight, and probably die... That's your restrictions.
Then again, I generally choose to get out of these restrictions, they're hard and I'm lazy.
Lets all rebirth as spoon elves and crack on?
Jack
I suppose it would be case by case, but that's my personal view on it
maybe it's just me, but I will happily alter/compromise my roleplay to mean that I continue playing with my friends, I mean restrictions are restrictions and my friends will understand that, but self imposed rp restrictions shouldn't cause a rift in a player base of friends, as people will sometimes get upset OOC because of something I have actively chosen to do for no other reason than roleplay.
OOC: This is essay worthy but I'm aiming at objective, I'm going to put in some TLDR markers for those who'd like to skip to the juicy bits but I think this should be food for thought for anyone playing in this geography of the system. Put the kettle on, tea up and start reading as I'm happy to discuss this when we next meet up
Unsurprisingly, I agree with Sam. I'm happy (as I feel it has stewed for a while) that this has come out as a discussion topic as we are essentially talking about how the bracketed system of dungeons protects people from meeting NPC's above their threshold, but does that necessarily protect them from the greater world.
To begin with, and because its important to identify that this is an in character thing, I'll pick out the bits which Sensai would take umbradge with;
TLDR1
--------
Things are not simple.
This would be the 3rd major time you have been the un-united of the Council in decisions of import and gone against the emperors wishes. You were not even in the room for a good amount of the talks, in fact a break was insisted so you could return to 'simply' vote no...
--------
Snake said no. simple.
In fact you said very little at all during the whole proceedings, it is wonderful that you left for a moment to keep thing safe, even if it didn't exactly work.
You have started this discussion on Lord Riki's request, but you have said very little and explained even less.
I pointed out who your answer of no wasn't simple.
I was there for a task, It appears you were not, that seems simple Lord Naga.
I have no questions, simple...
---------
The tone of these opening comments that start this chain bring a disrespectful and cowing tone from Dansu. You are 'telling of' Lord Naga, questioning his ability to lead. Most people on this string have played with Sensai, a few even since the beginning and will be able to identify that he doesn't deal well with any of these concepts. The way Sam refers to Sensai in his last post as Naga's attack dog (sorry Jules for the slow response - thinker not a typer) is often very true and the people who have played with Sensai a lot know that my list is broad to say this least, 99% is curtailed by Naga's usually more reasonable and politically minded demeanour.
---------
...With regards to your insult about me I demand satifaction as that is the second time and I should have asked the first when you called me greedy.
Lord Naga
---------
Naga identifies that he has been insulted. The "who will rid me of this bothersome priest" and Henry II is brought into effect and there is also no conceivable world where Sensai would see Naga as incorrect, and even if Sensai were to be able to identify this as a Machiavellian move he would still identify the parts which show the reason for blood and the wish for it.
---------
...Try to see thing from the other Daimyos point of view, perhaps it is time to step down from the council and let a diplomat take your place, you and I are the same my friend, we are warriors and killers of men. I knew when it was time to let the correct person to take the reins and find us the peace we do not seek, but want dearly for our loved ones.
Don't take the road to war, seek the peace of the fields.
Kazan Toshimoko
Done with titles
---------
With a diminutive tone set for this conversation, and Sensai believing that he has been green lit, the suggestion that Naga is anything less than a perfect leader places Toshi alongside Dansu in the line up.
---------
...Finally, I ask this to Lord Naga directly, as I asked this once at the conference and wish to be sure that your answer is as clear now as it was then. When you specified you would never ally with the Oryx tribe, were you speaking as yourself personally or as the intent of the clan. Meaning, if you as current Daimyo of the Snake, were to step down as clan Daimyo, would your new Daimyo, and thus the clan be bound by the same convictions, or are they merely bound because it is your own wish to do so?
I await your answers, and shall remain to answer any posed to myself as well.
With honour,
Haiyū Yang-To
---------
This is multi layered, but also put Yang in the cross hairs for a couple of reasons. Firstly, if you are a reasonably paranoid bodyguard, you can read this as 'if we replace you, will you replacement think the same thing?' Also, on the assumption (something Sensai does a lot of) that Yang knows of the Snake Clan and how we hold loyalty as a pretty singular code, its brings in to question the very ethic of the clan, suggesting that you could in fact find a member of the clan that would go against Naga's wishes and that there are cracks in our pristine family, something Sensai would be inclined to take personally.
---------
I have never said your are lying, but calling ANYONE greedy and power hungry is not something I would say.... (ooc: I cant search the forum, never works and I never directly insult anyone as Dansu normally, I think I said it off game)
I have never insulted you about the events, but I was given a task, you happen to have voted against it. Believe it or not, I was indeed saddened by this, as such I didn't however feel the the answer should have been simple, politics isn't simple and it was a mission of politics. I wanted more explanation, maybe it was not clear. You started this discussion after all.
But being saddened by your choice may have caused my word to be more forceful than intended and I will apologize for that.
I do not want a 'chance' lord Naga. I want respect as do we all.
--------
So, we can see at the start where one of Naga or Dansu has to be a liar, they can't both be right. Sensai, of course, accepts Naga as the truth and Dansu as the liar. Whether it ever happened or not to Sensai is neither here nor there, if Naga decreed the sky to by pink, Sensai would have it flogged for appearing in blue.
Recently, there have been a few situations that have caused Naga to pay an 'execution penalty' in matters of honour but IC Sensai identifies these as attacks on Naga's person that have been successful. With the now perceived pile on, Sensai interprets as a new attempt to see Naga on the chopping block and it is led by Dansu, a rival Daymio. Considering that this is one of two classic ways to bump off your competitors (the other being shredding them with a Katana which Sensai assumes Dansu or in fact any of the Crane to his knowledge to be capable of) Sensai starts to believe that he has found the conspiracy that he's been looking for. It is something to consider that even if a 15K character may be able to hack to death thousands of lower pointed characters, it is also possible for a clever 4th level character to call into question the honour of certain 15K characters, and in this geography of the game, can kill them.
Dansu apologises for her tone and this conversations quickly spiralling demeanour, but does not apologise for calling him greedy or power hungry. Dansu also finishes with saying that she does not wish a chance, and Sensai is inclined to extend that courtesy.
--------
I welcome you to these halls Neko Panama.
I too echo your stance on this matter. When the wish of the emperor is undermined, there must be consequence.
What is the stance of The Emperor's Honor on this matter?
It is possible that I might have been persuaded otherwise, however that door closes when civil conversations turn to open insults.
I remind those of the council here that when this council was formed it was agreed by all that any who causes harm to another member, and that there would be consequence to this action also.
With honor,
Haiyū Yang-To
---------
Sensai see's this as Yang all but stating that Naga should be executed (adding him firmly to the conspiracy), even calling in the judge...
--------
My stance is as always.
The true judge of a mans honour is himself.
Woodrow
--------
Luckily, the true judge (Naga) is as honourable as the day is long in Sensai's opinion.
--------
If calling me a coward is the best response you have to my reminder of how honour should dictate your actions you are a fool and worse; you are a danger to this land.
I challenge you to a duel to the death; to uphold my honour and that of the Emperor.
Let us agree the details directly with Woodrow Panama-sama before you embarrass yourself and your clan further.
Masaru Tao Chai Talibah
--------
... adds Masaru, which Naga swiftly accepts personally.
-------
Lord Naga,
I had asked you, in a civil manner to clarify your position on this matter, something important so that those that were not present can understand better as well as allow myself as Daimyo of the Jade Dragon decide which side we should stand on, and you have accused me of being "ignorant of the way the world actually works".
Unless you are saying that the world actually works with people in positions of political power making decisions without being certain of the stances of those involved - which I highly doubt - then your comment was false, and damaging to my reputation and the reputation of my ability to lead my clan.
Never did I state that the work of the Snake was integral to the Empire. You appear to have assumed that I have said that and retorted with an insult. What I was trying to ascertain was whether or not you, and the Snake as a clan, would be better suited to pursue your goals and orders as a clan apart from the council. Then, you would no longer feel bound by requirements of the council to hold a unified voice, and the rest of the council need not be at constant odds with you and your clan's interests.
Once again I fail to see where ignorance in the situation has arisen and caused you to comment on it.
With regards to your second comment, I have not, said anything of the sort. Both the code and our council's laws apply. Should anyone be forced to duel another within the council for their honor, we as a council could not stop it. However after such a duel was concluded the actions of engaging in a duel would then need to be addressed as per our agreements when the council was formed.
With honor,
Haiyū Yang-To
---------------
Yang states that he is insulted and has lost face, Yang also offers the Snake Clan to line up on the other side of the battelfield in Sensai's perception (that has often been accused of colour blindness), threatening to rescind any alliance with the other major clans, Sensai perceiving the Council of Jade to be a concord of all the major and powerful clans. This is a political flex and more fuel to the conspiracy thought
--------------
Well we cannot let a insult go unanswered.
Name your location and we can settle this with honor.
Or if you wish to use a tanto to regain your honor your welcome to follow Rikis example.
Lord Naga
-------------
... "who will rid me of this bothersome priest" ...
------------
For slights against my Lord's Honour, I Zu Wang Seung-Jean challenge Ningyou Dansu, Kazan Toshimoko, and Haiyu Yang-To.
On Starsday, I will be waiting on the wall between us and the Shadowlands. For those who choose not to attend me, I shall attend them and any who wish to protect them. Please understand that this is not a call for debate or your opinion, and begging only lowers oneself.
May Ting-Bo look favourably upon you all come the dawn of Sunsday.
------------
... and here we are! You will be unsurprised to hear, I hope, that I did in fact ***THIS BIT BEING EXTREMELY OOC*** message Naga directly asking for permission to challenge these people and the reasons why. I'm going to go into some hypothetical plotlines in a moment, and if one of them is the case, I (John) accept that Naga could in fact be setting up Sensai for a fall, as this is the game we play.
TLDR1
Next, I'd like to suggest some hypothetical thoughts of what is happening in our geography of the game currently
TLDR2
Firstly, there's the good old 'Naga is going insane' plotline possibility. The insane, old king ruling tyrannically over his land until either the curse is lifted or him thrown from the castle walls is a stable story. It is a solid possibility even, Laura having mentioned as Dansu that this Shadowed Deathdealer(?) has very bad juju in it, also the fact that Sam suggests that this iteration of Naga Yosaki has morphic issues with reality at this time due to an unstatic alignment leads to both plot or player led instability or both.
Secondly, everyone is shuffling for power AS THEY SHOULD BE in this part of the game. The thoughts of conspiracy which I mentioned Sensai to have come around to should actually be part of this geography, I would dearly hope for at least one other player out there if not several to be harbouring murderous thoughts for others, licking their lips in avarice over the power and status that the other has.
Thirdly, I wasn't at the three day but the bit about the adventure's plot that has jumped out at me from this string is "we should be proud of what you have achieved" emphasis on the should. Maybe, the intention of the Three day was to uncover this 1st Oni and decide that allying with him is a bad idea, dealing with that over the course of the event and finding a way to delay talks to allow the Jade Court to see this as well. Maybe there is some play in a thought about the morals of blind obedience. Maybe it is the Emperor himself, unwittingly or not, dancing us all down into hell. It would certainly be interesting to play this through, fostering tension between clans, thus characters and PC's in the game and stiring up the honour codes of this part of the system.
TLDR2
Next, I'd like to comment on my perspective of the new 'Amalaisian' part of the system as a returning player.
TLDR3
This part of our game is set to mimic some parts of a past Feudal society, after all, it is a roleplay game. This side of the system is intended to have added risk in the form of a differing to westernised moral philosophy and idealism which in turn leads to a high roleplay threat. You might be Masaru who's honour demands that he challenge someone who he knows to have no hope of defeating, you might be Sensai who's honour calls him to duel and kill people he not only likes (a very exclusive list), but thinks would be of much use to Amalas in the future. Its not about living or dying but about how you went about that, whether you wield a sword or a pen you shouldn't fear dying or loss, just how you will be remembered after which. Its about a pursuit of excellence and this is the merit. In the old days we used to get forearm parry for this but not any more If you would prefer to"don't be a dick and do the dungeon" may i suggest going to play the Imperial side of the game or some KOTL
A lot of things are different in Amalas in comparison to Higashi or before that Lataraman (I think thats spelt right?). This is a new land where I am still unsure as to who holds what both in and out of character. There is a new emperor who, from a perspective, treats his vassals a little differently from before, allowing them to find themselves in situations which demand seppuku and yet giving no clemency and sticking absolute and hard line to the letter of the new Jade Code.
From my very first Panama outing, the second dungeon I ever did in adult players i fondly remember the bit which struck the chord "you ain't in young players anymore". First Dragon Tear (Rob Shepard) berating me at volume for being a bad Samurai (I think it was not protecting someone well enough) and then after finishing passing me on to Kili Panama (Sarah Williams) for an even more vocal lesson on how I was expected to act. I shat myself the whole way through, knowing that Kili could execute me as she had done to someone THAT VERY MORNING but not knowing that at that time, Dragon Tear was not actually a Samurai or of status (he achieved this at the end of the day) and I could have actually told him to do one for shouting me down and embarrassing my character. (for the record, it was a different char, and not Sensai)
In these days, seppuku, or dying for honour's sake was not something you came back from. Cheeky res's afterwards were not heard of and certainly not sanctioned, you just rebirthed. Also, bushido was the code, a spiritual philosophy that guided ones actions as opposed to the contract with the Emperor that the new Jade Code seems to be.
Then, there's the unmentioned history of characters and the way in which long played 'Orientals' may choose to see the changing of their lands. I don't pretend to speak for others and how they see this (I would love to cafe tea and talk about it) but I have come to think that it is like a secundal event, my understanding of which is that if not met, changes the nature of that in game geography (granted the fact that I know it to be a system mechanic to remove the more racey or liable parts of an aging system, never the less, it affects in character). For near a decade or more the Heroes of Higashi (title of the first oriental myths we played in Higashi) toiled hard and faced every threat to save a land that was ultimately etch-a-sketched, along with any benefit, title, NPC allies, reputation or history. There was a particular line in the string from Yang-To ***Extremeley OOC*** that I almost reacted to;
Firstly, and I believe it was mentioned a number of times by many that participated in the peace talks in question, it was the Emperor's wish that peace be made. If there is any one that would take the stance that their duty, or responsibilities, is of greater importance than the wish of the Emperor, I request that they make this known now. - Yang-To
The entire basis of my rebirth was that I was sent from the Celestial Emperor with one command, protect the Daymio of the Snake Clan at any cost, awarded for saving Higashi repeatedly. In Higashi, the mortal Emperor ruled over earth, Lord Jikoku ruling over the Hells (aka Jikoku) with all following the Mandate of Heaven. There was no higher order than this from whence my orders came from and Sensai still believes in this structure to this day as he is yet to experience any other truth in the game. Logically extrapolated and made short, my protection of Naga ordered by the Celestial Emperor, superceeds the orders of the mortal Jade Emperor. Now, I'm not going to react to this in character as it would cause an outrage, limiting my capacity to protect Naga and even possibly putting him and the clan at risk. What I am looking to highlight is that everyone has more colour to their character than the short form to the Jade Code. As a good roleplayer you should ask yourself at which point does my Amalaisian step across the line and act outside of this code or even justify themselves through the observation of a higher power or similar. This, I like to believe, is the long running theme of the Snake Clan. I won't pretend for a second (whilst we're OOC) that we're the most honourable clan, but we are most definitely the one that would break the code to save the land and accept being martyred afterwards
TLDR3
On system brackets and their OOC protection, this being the meat of this discussion...
TLDR4
Dungeons and events are bracketed for a game mechanic reason, not an in character one. If this were an MMORPG, instead of a bracket on the booking sheet it would be a zone of play suggestion as round the corner lurk raid bosses. I consider this a theme that runs throughout all role play games and anyone who has refereed, Dungeon Guided or GM'ed has asked themselves the question "is it fair to release these stats on these players?" I for one have always been the harsh warning sign GM, (at times) clearly labelling the Balrog pit, suffixing DO NOT POKE and then gleefully tearing my party apart and explaining when they call unfair. If someone asked you at a convention who the hell is this Dwayne Johnson prat and then after proceeding to headbutt the Rock they receive the Peoples Elbow, would you feel sorry for them? This is, i feel, a solid case of natural selection. I know there are many that disagree with me but I like my role play to reflect the cold, harsh, unforgiving nature of reality.
I do however agree that there should be the chance of victory, and that is what the purpose of a bracketing mechanic is in an RPG, to guide you away from over potent NPC's. However, the greater campaign, the world plot and all the other Player Characters in the Labyrinthe game if it had to be strictly clarified into this bracketing is no max. The system should be fair to you and give you a chance, other players however, do not. For a long while now, I have complained about the other side of this whole argument. No one has ever moaned when they died half way through their day and with Tirama sitting on the desk, you magically are back in the game, where in the IC reality of it that would have meant leaving wherever you were in whatever corner of the world, and by happenstance bump into the High Priest of Shaehan who happens to be on a local constitutional rather than administering to the needy in Scarlene. Never has anyone been bothered either by the fact that even though this guild special is a max 3K the 15K guild leader is here to drop all the comms, do all the healing and, if [----] gets real, save everyone from losing.
With these precedents, and the very concepts and ideology's that create the Oriental geography of our system is it any surprise that something a lot more malicious could also come from these usually beneficial legends. To expect no reaction from a murder god or psycho nutcase because you prodded him is just nieve.
Ri'lek, I understand that you're present in our land on Sunsday and I think that would be more convenient for the both of us. I am not surprised that having not seen you in years Brother, that this is how you chose to visit. I, of course, accept you as Haiyū Yang-To sama champion.
Pickle, neither would I rob you of a chance to test yourself. You should attend the Snake Clan lands so that we might arrange a convenient time. This should be arranged before the end of this month.
Zu Wang Seung-Jean
Daymio of the Zu family
Sensai and Warlord of The Snake Clan
================
OOC: Phil, made a bobo and double booked saturday in my keen, sunday before the myths leadup?
Its 4am, and this is why I usually ignore the forums
((I'm not sure if I've just been told off or not, I've not broken IC except to say that I'm loving the role play..)
Completely off topic, John I think you've got the wrong idea of what TLDR means :-)
I only read your TLDRs and am none the wiser. Not a criticism, but just thought I'd mention.
Matt
OOC
To be honest the Snake Clan leaving / being totally unfairly & unceremoniously kicked out of the CoJ might stop me playing my monk as he will not be welcome / allowed plus doesn't give him any of the much needed benefits.
It isn't actually an issue as I don't expect to be playing much over the next year or so. I really hope all gets sorted out without people getting upset with each other
Ooc: it stats clearly for the snake to leave the council not Naga stepping back/down.
I would have happily passed the role of body over
Personally, my Snake clan monk doesn't mind losinthe benefits, it's RP and something you buy into when you take the restrictions. IMO
OOC: The intention of the vote was that Naga stepped down apointed a replacement and the Snake Clan remained, but there is another thing going on which apparently needs ironing out. But honestly I'm so tired of this that I'm close to calling it quits and stand back and watch the fireworks proceed. I've tried really hard to calm things down in a IC manner and it's getting boring putting out fires...
OOC: This is the best soap on the net
Miles
OMG THIS IS GOLD !!!!
We all choose to play in this section of the game world knowing what it means !! Sam or John at no point camr out of charter!
Are we all for getting Sam just lost thousands of points due to a RP choice due to the honour system.
He hasnt bullied anyone and i take offence at that phrase being used in this way, hes playing a game that in this part of the system is deadly if you upset the wrong person.
yep he ic got pissed and did what an evil git would do, i can win this quick and easy so i will....
Sorry but total pisss take, and let me just get my chicken wings and throw words around that in the real world make people say "oh no we cant have that".
i had this done to me so many times as Jaraxle, by Thor, Bazil and Harpell, did i once come on here i say i was being racially bullied..
im sorry but i thiught this whent way over the top and real world pc BS brought into a game.
jay
((Seems everyone wants a go at stirring the pot!
For the second time we are basically at a point where we are all able to move on IC and OOC and another brave warrior wades in to the melee!))
Ooc: can we stop this thread now.... it has become a giant circle of argument. I can no longer see a need for this to continue, all the ic and ooc stuff has been dealt with by those who are actually involved.
My 2grulls.
^Was just saying was time to stop it all, as Tony said.
We're all good here!
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