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> Shieldless fighting... how not to get killed, E and B weapon ideas
Alasdair
post Mar 21 2014, 12:24 PM
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I have a warrior priest /// defender of the faith. I want him to become more martial, so expect to fully enter the Warr bracket. And I want to avoid the use of a shield.

Long term what are my options -

O class + off-hand empty would be lovely, but is pants in surviveability. Can I use YP to make up for this... eg... 'cos I only use one weapon in O this allows greater poise and power: may buy and benefit from Distancing as if in all ways was using a B class weapon / max dam quin / off-side parry?

Or do I think E class and MC to a Budoka style class to develop parrying?

Or do I think B class for reach and distancing, accept I'll get hit more and just buy innate healing?

Further context: character is goodly and angelic, and I fancy stepping towards spiritual only hits via an Angellic MR. I also am thinking of significant martial specialism, like weapon master (hand or bastard mace).

Thoughts?
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sonof
post Mar 21 2014, 01:00 PM
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Defender of the faith (if you mean the standard class) means you can't enter the ewarrior bracket.

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MattWest
post Mar 21 2014, 01:00 PM
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No expert here but regarding B-class have you considered M/C Weapons Priest? Extra spirits and just use a staff IIRC? Overlaps with Defender a bit so might feel like a waste of points.

MC Budoka if eligible for it could be a good move for any of your non-shield fighting options as with Parry Versatility (40 points) you can use FAP (etc., I believe) with a B-class weapon in which you have +2 WM, and certainly you can use it with just an O-class weapon in one hand in any event.

A Budoka-style MC which gives benefits only when fighting with just an O-class weapon and no shield could be cheaply costed IMHO. Of course is in Warrior Bracket but maybe you might get an exemption for MCing to it if you have standard Defender otF MC.

Alternatively a non-standard variant of Chi Master?

A standard precedent for distancing with a weapon under 30" is the Swift Glaive ability in the Ishmaic book; don't know if you could develop anything similar for fighting with just an O-class weapon and no shield but seems more than reasonable.

Presumably given you desire to become more martial you would not be interested in MC Witch so as to fight with just cudgel and relying on DAC for AC (this would reduce you to Max Triple). But it could give some interesting benefits for only having a single-handed weapon.

Post Witch what about "The Left Hand Path" allowing a healing miracle to hang indefinitely on your left hand (and be cast one-handed) provided you don't touch any weaponry or shield with it? Ability lost for the day if you hold a weapon or shield in your left hand for more than 10 seconds?


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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PaulM
post Mar 21 2014, 03:25 PM
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Hi Alasdair,

For B Class I have passed Budoka and fully intend to gain forearm parry and parry versertility.

But please remember going Budoka/Chi Warrior will mean no physical armour so be prepared before hand.

From there its all about distancing and rage type abilities for damage mitigation and reduction.

So I combine B class with Forearm parry and Distancing type abilities FTW.


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Naga
post Mar 21 2014, 03:37 PM
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Fap,flp uap and ulp - can parry anything think that cost me about 2k all in.

Happy to show you my points apps
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Stuart
post Mar 21 2014, 03:54 PM
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Buy rebirth, carry scrolls of res and get to enjoying playing the character from the start again?

Stuart
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MattWest
post Mar 21 2014, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE(sonof @ Mar 21 2014, 01:00 PM) *
Defender of the faith (if you mean the standard class) means you can't enter the ewarrior bracket.

Lee


Though I really, really don't recommend it you always have the option of step-changing to Spiritual Warrior at which point your Warrior of the Faith ability via Defender of the Faith M/C would be enhanced completely standardly giving you much more Warrior buy-as (though not as good as Warrior itself). This may screw up your spend in other ways, and would cost 180 points which you would have not incurred by just being a Spirit Warrior to start with.


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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Hulud
post Mar 21 2014, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE(Stuart @ Mar 21 2014, 03:54 PM) *
Buy rebirth, carry scrolls of res and get to enjoying playing the character from the start again?

Stuart



Yup, this worked!


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Rob
post Mar 21 2014, 05:43 PM
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Non shield fighting - I have done it a number of ways

One O class weapon + empty hand is doable but challenging for a priest as they don't have the availability of warrior stuff to back it up

I have a crusading priest with 2 hammers who has:

Max armour now leather (2+2) and maximum 3 items
Gains 2 class Dac and can fill crusading priest warrior specialist with monk specialists (fore arm parry)
I then when defender of the Faith, L7 and 8 let me join warrior guilds (still not in bracket) and buy 3 abilities as 1st class Budoka.

I guess that would give you what you need mate :-)


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Alasdair
post Mar 21 2014, 10:08 PM
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Thanks guys...!
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Jorven
post Apr 1 2014, 12:21 PM
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Alternatively if you wanted to save yourself some points, and you like the weapon style, a GREAT weapon for not dying is the Long Quarterstaff.

In close range you can hold it so that both ends of the staff act as shields for your arms - you can then rotate them to protect either your legs or head as appropriate. It is a very quick weapon and difficult to bypass for an opponent with ONE WEAPON due to its reach as well as versatility.

If other warriors are in the fray you can still get well and truly involved by standing behind them and bashing the enemy from afar with a long grip. This is also ideal for keeping dual-wielders at bay, just keep backpedalling while hitting them for triples / quads!

Thought it might make a perfect weapon for a goodly person who doesn't necessarily always want to fight, but should always be ready. "You wouldn't part an old man with his walking stick?" smile.gif
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BBB
post Apr 1 2014, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE(Jorven @ Apr 1 2014, 01:21 PM) *
Alternatively if you wanted to save yourself some points, and you like the weapon style, a GREAT weapon for not dying is the Long Quarterstaff.

In close range you can hold it so that both ends of the staff act as shields for your arms - you can then rotate them to protect either your legs or head as appropriate. It is a very quick weapon and difficult to bypass for an opponent with ONE WEAPON due to its reach as well as versatility.

If other warriors are in the fray you can still get well and truly involved by standing behind them and bashing the enemy from afar with a long grip. This is also ideal for keeping dual-wielders at bay, just keep backpedalling while hitting them for triples / quads!

Thought it might make a perfect weapon for a goodly person who doesn't necessarily always want to fight, but should always be ready. "You wouldn't part an old man with his walking stick?" smile.gif


Staff and Forearm Parry worked for me for 19,000pts...

Its a rubbish offensive weapon though due to the OOC limitations of no thrusting but as a defensive instrument its pretty tops for a basically pacifistic goodly type.

BBB


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Alasdair
post Apr 1 2014, 08:46 PM
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Agree with the staff comments. Have been musing the same!

Al
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MattWest
post Apr 2 2014, 12:08 PM
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Sometimes you can get trapped close up against a wall and a staff is then difficult to parry with. I guess that's what Angelic Shifts are for.

But just to emphasise:- priest with staff >>> M/C Weapons Priest (!)

Bit of a shame if points are wasted on having Defender otF as well as Weapons Priest, but maybe Yellow Paper could be feasible, post 6th in one and 8th in the other, to get better Warrior of the Faith buy-as? Or having 6th level in one might justify a cheaper cost / better abilities for levels 7 and 8 in the other?


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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Ryan
post Apr 2 2014, 12:39 PM
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Shield is the only thing that will in my opinion offer protection from someone with a short o class weapon and he's happy too step into your reach... Staff due to no thrusting is of no use if the opponent takes two steps forward and you do to take two back... Same with most bclass weapons.
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MattWest
post Apr 2 2014, 01:01 PM
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Yes but at least if you have a weapon of around 36" or less yourself you can have some reasonable chance of smacking him back while he's smacking you...

... and, scratching my head for ways around this, I don't think that the "backhand scram" style is really permissible in Labyrinthe, but then again there is always unarmed combat. Another vote in favour of forearm parry and its friends I guess!


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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DanM
post Apr 2 2014, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE(MattWest @ Apr 2 2014, 02:01 PM) *
... and, scratching my head for ways around this


I think the only technique that works is of questionable safety


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gormaden
post Apr 2 2014, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE(Ryan @ Apr 2 2014, 01:39 PM) *
Shield is the only thing that will in my opinion offer protection from someone with a short o class weapon and he's happy too step into your reach... Staff due to no thrusting is of no use if the opponent takes two steps forward and you do to take two back... Same with most bclass weapons.

Not that I want to, but I have to agree with Ryan
- I tried out weapons priest staff. If you use if properly you sweep to the head and feet as you cant thrust. Head shots 'micky' people off royally so you end up holding like a shovel for feet strikes offering you little protection to body strikes.

The best person I have ever seen using a staff defensively is Jasper, but then he used a short parrying stick rather than a 5ft/6ft pole.


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MattWest
post Apr 2 2014, 01:45 PM
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QUOTE(DanM @ Apr 2 2014, 02:20 PM) *
I think the only technique that works is of questionable safety


If you mean having a little head-to-head, or knee-to-nuts, very questionable safety. Or maybe you mean pushing past them?

A solution I have sometimes seen implemented is using your 5' weapon to strike little w**ky blows, which is really goat, but grappling isn't allowed, so if someone has you pressed up against a wall, what do they expect?? At least a staff is better for that than a spear because you can semi-respectably use both ends and make the blows look a bit less goat. But not much.

My own response is probably to scream "help!" very loudly, stagger out of there, realise I should have died 5 blows ago (but conveniently only realise that when within reach of the party) and fall over conveniently near a prot...


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OOC:- Matt West

IC:- A. bin Razil of the Carrion Scavengers Hetyan (Ishmaic Onyx Wizard and Knight of the Land, suitable for a Max 750); Yosh (monastically trained knife-thrower, suitable for a Max 2k, semi-retired); Hassan bin Kassim of the Perished Sands Hetyan (mage, suitable for a Max 1500); Haram of the Blackened Bones Hetyan (please smile for the crazy evil witch!) (suitable for a Max 750); Flaig (Pilgrim of the Forge, around the 500 mark, played on Borderwatch guild specials); "Murk" ('the Mercenary formerly known as "Sunflower"') (as featured in Primal Times No. 24) ("suitable" for a Max 1K, allegedly); Sahra bin Flambo of the Placid Waters Hetyan (290 points of fire and spear, plus any monster points; "Sahra" means "Desert"); various others


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Stuart
post Apr 2 2014, 02:00 PM
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I appreciate it's controversial, but it's worth just dying and getting ressed. If the ref is on the ball they'll probably avoid docking you res chance and items, give the priest his spirits back and quietly let everyone get on with their lives.

I died 15 times as my duellist going through 100%.

Stuart
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