Pre 8th club.... Options

[sonof]

As part of the never ending attempts to work on the system the handbook has surfaced again (like jaws it never dies!!!!).

After chatting last week a simple question has arisen:

Should we keep the pre-8th system?


Now the question is simple but the impact is massive.
Amongst instantly available comments are:

Complexity of starting at 8th as a caster.
Dungeon levels, a new player on a 250 could be massively out of their depth.
What happens to ref points.

I could go on, and have about a dozen things on my list. So I'd love to hear comments from people (new and old) about this. Pro's and con's.

Please avoid repeating yourself or getting into debates on individual points. Clear and concise is good

This isn't going to be a quick answer, and I am sure this will generate lots of viable outcomes and relevant comments.

Lee

[RichardCraig]

I think its;a good idea.

I'd cap the amount of MP related things and non standard rebirths etc on either all low level events (by adding in points modifiers again) or make some specifically standard only so new players don't feel that they missing something because they don't have the ability to do everything on a max 250!

Obviously the amount of information a new player will need will increase, I'm obviously in favour of making all of the books available online for free but if you don't want to do that certain excerpts do need to be available.

The pre 8th system is not representative of what the rest of the system is like so I have no issues with getting rid of it.

[AndyWashington]

Would getting rid of it achieve very much? People who are experienced and dislike it either avoid it by using ref points or re-birthing old characters they have no intention of playing again.
It does allow a gentler introduction to the system for new people to try it out, the system is complicated enough without chucking people in a 8th.

Lastly if we are abolishing levels 1 to 8 what impact would it have on multi-classing and racing?

A

I'll answer saying none for multi-classing and racing, you'd still need to buy them. would only effect base classes.

Lee

[JackFlashblade]

Personally I would be in favour of scrapping the pre 8th system.

I feel that it is easier for newer players to learn the stats of a character from 8th than to have to have the very different stats of playing at 4th level, then 6th level, then 8th level. (over their first 3 adventures).

Just my 2p

[Will]

Yes, please scrap.

To my fair eyes it is much simpler to give someone a set of clear stats and spells that then progress gradually than dumping people in the pre 8th system where things escalate and change rapidly over the course of a couple of adventures and they have to relearn. At least if you go straight in at 8th you can have a pre set set of info and stats people can be provided with to help them.

As to what to do with ref points, make a ref point table.

[Ferro]

I think scrap it.

The difference between the levels is quite harsh and means that casters can't do anything on a pre-8th.

Imo it's just easier to go to a new player, "here's your stats" and after their first dungeon, they get to start choosing. You don't confuse them with what is essentially a very different feel game before 8th.

It may mean more new players asking for respends and it may mean more questions being asked on the boards but I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily.

The warriors should feel tougher, the casters actually have some power and the scouts will actually be able to do stuff.

Just like with pre-8ths now, we'll just ensure as a club that we're extra supportive to new players on a max 250.

[Kail]

Scrap it.

The new players on super Saturday all started at 8th and it worked.

There are more max 250 dungeons so there are more chances for new players to be able to play.

Casters are easier to start at 8th in my opinion. You can explain the life cost for a wizard to a new player easier if they are 8th level. Any spell below 6th costs you 1 tblp. Choose some spells of that level and be low and get an idea of the verbals and you're good to go. If all refs give new players the ley way of fudge verbals, now it's available on tables, and they are sorted.

More power means it's more fun for new player casters.

At 8th the new player playing the warrior actually feels that bit tougher than their mate playing the scout. The scout actually has some scout skills to try out. Again I would say refs should let new player scouts try their skills on the first day, not write them on the character cards, then let them go home, read the scout book and choose for real.

As for ref points leave them being able to be used for level losses when making or being converted to more monster points. We get a lot for crewing as it is, I don't thinkwe need more. This is a club we all enjoy after all.

Edd

[Helsvell]

It is very different to the rest of the system. It doesnt really help new players to learn so get rid of it please.

What happens to ref points.

Firstly, I think this is a separate issue that has needed addressing for ages, and it really urks me!!! :-)


Moving swiftly on...

Like others have said the Pre 8th system is redundant in the way the system is now used and played, its much simpler to work with one set of stats from the off set.
But do we really want them then coming for their second timer and having to figure out points and deal with Max 250s or whatever!!

My suggestion would be start at 8th and your first two, three, more times you don't gain anything, or maybe gain skills, spells etc. This is very easy avoided by experienced players with contacts. But means that players gain something, but don't have to deal with the complexity of a pre 8th system that becomes redundant almost instantly!

Means Casters gain spells slowly but have power to use, Scouts gain scouty skills slowly and can choose and figure them out, Warriors are the worst off with this but I suppose a War Cry or Weapon Mastery makes a massive difference.

This allows you to have a simplified "Pre 8th" system (and adventures) but ditches the outdated per 8th system.

I would hate to loose any Pre 8th System as a YP ref, but I hate that it makes it MORE complex for new people.


Other commenst...
A NEW 8th level player on a 250 will find it horror! (The YP certainly do!)
Items and stuff given by other players (although nice, I'm not innocent!) are a pain!!
Being in lots of guilds is my worst nightmare, but maybe this is just a YP thing!

I think that's more that enough from me, for now, but I deal with it A LOT as a YP ref. So I hope its been helpful! :-)

[isbiraven]

starting at 4th was a good change, starting at 8th is better all reasons above I have agreed with so far... just easier for all concerned tbh.

Maybe have "straight 8th" dungeons as a new character starter dungeon where people can come and learn a new skill set if they want to ect? but then this could be over complicating it for now reason as refs can stat and make calls to allow for the new and inexperienced members of the party.

[Orlock]

Agree with the comments so far and I suspect that it would also improve with being able to book onto a dungeon as well as there may be more avalable instead of having to wait a couple of weeks for a pre 8th to appear...

Having said that, I actually like the pre 8th dungeons as it gives me an opportunity to develop my character and build some back stories - but the merits of scrapping it far outweigh this and I am in agreement that it would make the game easier for new starters.

[Harrumph]

i don't think it will achieve much to scrap it but also think the game won't lose much.

with a marketing head on I'd still set up one dungeon a month on the calendar and label it new player session to try and continue the current great work that has been done on encouraging new players.

it doesn't really matter that it's just a normal max 250 as long as somebody new can see it and think it's a good chance to have a go.

Richard

[RobFarina]

I'm clearly going against the grain here, and can fully understand why longer standing players are comfortable with it disappearing.

However from a "returning newbie's" point of view, getting to grips with the new system is a lot, and I think the pre 8th dungeons allow "us" (and I'm clearly only speaking for those less knowledgeable) to learn character classes without completely ruining a dungeon for us or anyone else because the party were expecting you to do X as a Wizard for example and not do Y.

As it has been stated I think those who have the ref points/rebirths etc and want to avoid the pre 8th dungeons will do so, but what I think the pre-8th offers is the platform for experienced players and new comers to interact in an environment where the less experienced can get a bit of guidance.

Just food for thought.

[Netheril]

Personally not likely to be effected, but nonetheless do think its a good idea to scrap pre 8th dungeons.

Maybe make it so that ref pts allow you to start at about 200 pts. And slow down the pts advancement between 8th and 200pts, so that it take 3 or 4 dungeons to get to 200 pts. And you cant use monster pts/items etc until after the 200pts threshold is reached. Maybe even allow experienced players to put 200 monster pts on in one go to skip those dungeons IF they want to.

Make those dungeons more aimed at people who want to learn their characters before being thrown in at the deep end. So that they still have a chance to learn at a slower pace, but they are learning the post 8th system from the go, without having to worry about how different 4th to 8th is.

Cheers,

Sean

[whitewall]

Do not scrap

Starting at Pre 8th helps a lot of new players get use to some of the basics of the system - this is an introduction to Labyrinthe and helps new players -e specially new 'monsters'.

seasoned players like my self also use the system to re- familiarise ourselves to changes and get back into our stride.

Further it does help with getting use to re-births and how to 'play' them.

Being dumped into a system at 8th level - why not just say start all players with 5000 points. What is teh difference beteen 8th level and 8th level +5000 points - just abilities. So why not just say all players start at 8th + 5k or more...

I can tell you why - because alot of seasoned players wopuld then 'whinge' about new players not understanding the system, how abilities work, how such abilities interact, or that they never earned their points...

One has to start some where - so pre-8th always new people to get use to the system. How good would a new player be at playing an 8th level mage or priest. Since the player would have to learn all their verbals, understand the written language - How frustrating will older players not playing a mage find it if their mage had to decifier a scroll. If you alway new players who have no idea of the complex nature of Labyrinthe to start at a level which doesn't allow them time to learn and adapt, such a new player will likely leave and not return.

If older players don't wish new players into the club through this method - I question their real loyalty to the club. Labyrinthe thrives on its membership and players. New players do add new dynamics and exapnd the club. Let new players come and learn the system through going pre-8th and get a better understanding as they progress.

Further players also monster - how would a seasoned ref react to find that his monsters were all 'new' and had no experience what so ever. What quality of dungeon would that give the players?

If people don't wish to ref pre 8th dungeons, then don't ref them. If you don't want to play them - then don't play them. They are there as a learning tool for new players and new monsters.

I say keep the pre-8th system. It helps new players, new monsters and new refs and A-refs.

[whitewall]

apologise for the spelling errors

[dnsmantra]

I think there are two separate issues:

1 - how different the pre-8th system is to the rest.
2 - the speed of progession.

For #1 - I don't think it really adds anything. I think there should be some straight-8th events as the new low - which is 8th only, no monster points used etc. - perhaps which award a few less points than doing a 250 to ease progression. Ed made a very valid point about wizards/casting damage and so on as you level-up. It is easier just to explain how it works at 8th. Valid points were also made about a new player being out of their depth on a 250 at 8th - which I agree with.

For #2 - I think ease of char point/monster point availability (particularly from things like tombolas) has caused a lot of harm to the system at the lower / newer player end (at the mid-higher end it matters a lot less). Folks get out of their depth much more quickly than in the past and don't get to spend enough time in the max 250/500/750 part of the world - which is important in learning how the system works (as it is very complex to pick up). Perhaps the number of MP's you can put on to chars at the sub-1k part of the system should be hugely reduced, maybe to a maximum of 25 per day's play or something like that. This would give players a much longer period of time in the lower part of the system and likely lead to more of those events being scheduled also + more experienced players being in that part of the system for longer, which likely also helps newer players find their feet.

Huw

[gormaden]

Agreed with the generally feeling above. There's a fine balance between introducing new players to a simplified system and dumbing so far down that's its almost unrecognisable at 8th.

However, from the number of the people I have spoken from other games, its the complexity of the system is the biggest thing that puts new players off.
Yes, we are a highly evolved system, we have a great set of rule books that explains all the standard abilities but consider this...
Some systems have up to 50 abilities in total. The warrior alone has 400+ standard abilities.

The solution - scrap pre 8th. Slow down the progression up to 500 points. Allow points to be added (from monster points/tombola) after this point.
Bump the tables up - so table one starts at 100 - so you have a least 2 games under your belt before you have to worry about spend.
To complicate things - YP are used to power game rather than add flavour but that's another topic altogether.

[whiteknight]

I like the pre 8th system and I like reffing it too. It's an easy way for new players to learn what is a mega complex system. I very much agree with Marcos - new players are put off by the system complexity.

Also, most of the pre 8ths seem to get nicely booked up so people evidently enjoy them.

They also must help generate funds for the club I would guess.

Rich

[daork]

For me i would say get rid of it, primarily because when a new player comes to labyrinthe they get taught about levels, and their base stats for whatever class they are playing, with most refs vaguely mentioning points as 'something to think about later' Given the system is quite complex the amount of info just for pre 8th can be quite high. Then 2 dungeons later they reach 8th level and suddenly reach a completely different way of progressing a character. So although the total information load on day one is slightly less under the new system the amount they need to learn within their first few dungeons is much higher than just starting at 8th and teaching them about points straight away.