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Labyrinthe Forum _ General Discussion - OOC _ Med vs Regen

Posted by: Ferro Apr 21 2017, 12:41 PM

This post is primarily aimed for a healing pure priest going major sphere healing.

So, with the introduction of Vessel of the Spirit World, and with total heal on your miracle list, why wouldn't you?

Is there any reason why you would choose to keep med over Vessel of the Spirit World?

Do med and regen have a level playing field and it's just down to play style or are there clear advantages and disadvantages of one other the other?

Any and all thoughts appreciated.

Posted by: Gordon Apr 21 2017, 12:52 PM

Vessel is straight up brilliant. 2 total heals an hour for a 600pt investment.

On an extended length if you have 10 active hours a day that = 120 spirits and 24 total Heals.

If you plough points into med rate at 3k you could have x2, x3 off the tables another x1 from devout priest, up that to 7 spirits an hour base = 28 spirits for a full hour.

which means you have to get in 4 full hours of uninterrupted med in the same 10 hour period just to get close to the 12 spirits an hour from vessel.

Yes vessel is limited but it you are going to be casting handbook miracles there is no issue. With wisdom of the scriptures it is a cure serious every 5 minutes which is the same as a combat total every 30 minute and you get to spread the love.


Posted by: Gordon Apr 21 2017, 12:53 PM

I've only played one dungeon as a vessel of the spirits so far but I know that every priest I now possess wants in on it.

Posted by: dnsmantra Apr 21 2017, 01:01 PM

Vessel is extremely undercosted for its power. There's basically no reason at all not to take it as a G/N priest, especially as you can still med if you want to - so regen for most of the day, then a couple of hours of med for your normal spirits instead of its regen, then let it regen for the rest of the time. If it were 50% or 100% more points, it would still be good value.

Huw

Posted by: Christine Apr 21 2017, 01:36 PM

Devotion healing tree > everything else.

Personally I don't like Vessel and won't be buying it. I suspect I am in the minority. Mind you I haven't bought any med rate either.

C

Posted by: Ryan Apr 21 2017, 01:36 PM

The power Regen class for a priest is essentially completely under costed.

Between the class and the abilities to cast a free miracle per 15 minutes you could be looking at a 48/48 prayer to aided heal every 7.5 minutes... Which I think is better value than total heal unless you have someone with a crazy life scale in your party (and then you will be wound staunch / healing handing them to a full prepped total anyway).

Posted by: fatteacher Apr 21 2017, 01:56 PM

QUOTE(Christine @ Apr 21 2017, 02:36 PM) *
Devotion healing tree > everything else.

Personally I don't like Vessel and won't be buying it. I suspect I am in the minority. Mind you I haven't bought any med rate either.

C

Why don't you like it? What direction do you think a pure healer should or could go please?
Thank you

Posted by: sonof Apr 21 2017, 02:04 PM

For a 3 day day med is better than vessel. Especialy if you get a power nap, and maybe go buy some Claming herbs to use with it.

For a caves dungeon devotion innates are better than vessel.

Vessel is good, no doubt, and if you are definately going to use handbook miracles it is well worth the points. I would definately buy it early if I wasn't going to devout as a priest. The big draw back on it is that when it empties you take a while to get any back, and will soemtimes find you are full with nothing to cast on.

Lee

Posted by: Christine Apr 21 2017, 03:31 PM

QUOTE(fatteacher @ Apr 21 2017, 02:56 PM) *
Why don't you like it? What direction do you think a pure healer should or could go please?
Thank you



As I said, Devotion. So good an ability that it got clarified years ago smile.gif

Write a miracle list that puts the minor sphere stuff you want on, remember there is no point putting on Major Sphere stuff from other Spheres if you are going to Devote. Which you are.

Buy all your devotion innates, devote to the tree and get the cheap standard non-standard to stop buying res innates or use them as something lower down the tree.

If you end up doing a 3 day or other extended length, buy greater aware med. Until then, don't bother. Buy double med and wizard med, should be fine, half the time on an extended length there will be some sort of med buff anyway because waiting until midnight to do the section is dull. Consider buying a cheap thing to let you med back innates if you think you will be wasting med time otherwise.

Buy spiritual healer or a non-standard version for survival. Also gives spirits, so win / win, and will let you buy Healing Sphere innates later cheaply, because you have Devotion and Devotion wins.

In answer to your other question, I don't like Vessel because it feels like a constant OOC mechanic interfering with my immersion. That's meant to sound less precious than it does, but basically I mean that constantly thinking about how much time I've had for the spirits that can only be used for certain stuff to regen, and the fact that I can only use certain spirits for certain stuff, is a distraction I don't find helpful. It could be argued that its no different from having healing-only spirits, but as a healer you are casting most of your spirits on healing anyway and tend to burn through that specific pool first so it rarely if ever matters. Also, again, I don't think its as good as Devotion smile.gif

C

Posted by: Ryan Apr 21 2017, 03:33 PM

QUOTE(sonof @ Apr 21 2017, 03:04 PM) *
The big draw back on it is that when it empties you take a while to get any back, and will soemtimes find you are full with nothing to cast on.

Lee



I think this is true of everything but healing... healing is too useful all of the time even if you are cure wounding casting life while people comm!

I think essentially healing breaks every ability of this nature

Also I disagree with Lee on an extended length - double med, plus devout priest and 7 per hour med should give you 84 spirits tops assuming you power played your med burst...
11am to midnight of time in (it could easily be more) 156 spirits...

Christine is right about round the tree but sometimes you might need spirit bolt or spirit invis and the regen class opens that up too

Posted by: dnsmantra Apr 21 2017, 03:39 PM

Not really sure I agree (with Lee).

On a 3-day, lets say you get up at 9am and go to sleep at 9pm, which is unlikely (will be much longer), but 12 hours is a good number. That's 144 spirits from vessel.

Generously you'll get maybe an hour's med over breakfast and put some power into runes (maybe). Lets say you have 4x med rate, again being generous. That's 28 power. Then say you get an hour over lunch, and two hours over dinner; that's 112 power, for four full hours of med (and that's a fair bit). Even if you manage to squeeze a med burst in that's still only 140, and realistically vessel will give you more than 144 in a day and you can still med over dinner instead of claiming the regen - and to get x4 med rate you'll need to have gone devout priest or something similar as well - yet more points.

The regen also, just works. You don't need to sit in a corner, it can't be broken by the monsters throwing tennis balls into the tavern 14.5 mins through your med burst or a 54 mins into an hour. It is always there, working for you.

Sure it might in theory be full, but there are innates to move spirits to your main pool and why would you ever not cast from that pool as your first port of call - the likelihood is it will be regening most of the time.


Yes, theoretically 12 total heals with devotion is 360 + 80 = 440pts, so 160pts cheaper for the same raw power over a 6 hour double length. However, it's locked into totals. I'd much rather have 72 spirits of anything basic on my list, than it be locked into totals.


At the end of the day it's all personal preference. The key thing with vessel is that it's really good in basically all situations and it complements having some innates via devotion or some med extremely well with little to no draw backs. At 900pts it would have been a steal, at 600 there's literally no reason not to buy it.

Huw

Posted by: Christine Apr 21 2017, 04:00 PM

I think another point to be considered is that you are (probably) not spending these hypothetical 600 points in one hit. If you were, then maybe Vessel is more attractive - I still wouldn't buy it, and at the stage of play where I might start to have the points free to buy it I think I would be moving on to other things.

Gaining those 600 points on a dungeon by dungeon basis, I think you get more use out of your healing innates - the tree to Total is 80 points, which is conveniently therefore something you can buy off most dungeons.

But Huw is ofc right that it is a personal play style choice.

C

Posted by: Ryan Apr 21 2017, 04:06 PM

QUOTE(Christine @ Apr 21 2017, 05:00 PM) *
I think you get more use out of your healing innates - the tree to Total is 80 points, which is conveniently therefore something you can buy off most dungeons.


Erm...

The tree is 130pts with devotion which is also 50pts on top..:

Edit: I see you said to Total - but you still can't call that convenient as you still need to buy a Res that requires a points app to be useful!

Posted by: Ryan Apr 21 2017, 04:11 PM

There are a million different play styles in any case - I have devotion to Total Heal Only and no Vessel (as it wasn't around) on my 6K dedicated healing priest.

Posted by: sonof Apr 21 2017, 04:16 PM

I point out it was not "a tennis ball" into the tavern, it was about 60....

The biggest reason for med over regen class on an extended length is regaining power. You regen 12 spirits, that can onlybe handbook. You can move 18 power to your main pool in a day.

As a healer you will easily use more than 12 spirits in a big fight, and it will happen 3-4 times in a day.

The result is you slowly lose power from your main pool and have to rely on your 12 regening spirits.

If your normal pool regenned at 1 per 5 minutes its no question, but because it's just one pool it is where it really starts to matter.

Best guess is come dinner time you'll be low (if not out) of your normal pool and only have 12 spirits to use and handbook miracles.

Lee


Posted by: Christine Apr 21 2017, 04:20 PM

QUOTE(Ryan @ Apr 21 2017, 05:06 PM) *
Erm...

The tree is 130pts with devotion which is also 50pts on top..:

Edit: I see you said to Total - but you still can't call that convenient as you still need to buy a Res that requires a points app to be useful!


Clearly you are not sinking points into buying useless res innates unless you have that points app smile.gif Or you could just limit yourself to only playing Huw or Lee events, then the points won't be wasted. What are you doing tomorrow, Ryan? tongue.gif

C

(The answer is, ofc, perming).

Posted by: Ryan Apr 21 2017, 04:26 PM


Using up all those reses you've saved up from devotion - Obvs!!

Posted by: BBB Apr 21 2017, 04:32 PM

I personally think Vessel for Priests should have maxed out at 1 spirit per 10 minutes not 1 per 5 like mana.

Med is good for extended lengths if you rely on non-handbook stuff but a Healer can get by pretty well on handbook healing miracles making Vessel a very very good choice.

BBB

Posted by: Christine Apr 21 2017, 04:33 PM

No innate res here, bring your scrolls tongue.gif And 5k to bribe Stotesbury with so he doesn't run off with your outlawed corpse.......

I have however derailed the thread, for which apologies. It was to mock Ryan so I guess it's allowed.

C

Posted by: BBB Apr 21 2017, 04:38 PM

QUOTE(Christine @ Apr 21 2017, 04:31 PM) *
As I said, Devotion. So good an ability that it got clarified years ago smile.gif

C


The fact that Devotion has never featured in any of my infamous spends should tell you just how hard it is smile.gif

(Although I did manage to play my main Priest, which had no theoretical limit on the number of spirits I could have, yet limited myself to 240)

BBB

Posted by: fatteacher Apr 21 2017, 04:44 PM

QUOTE(Christine @ Apr 21 2017, 04:31 PM) *
As I said, Devotion. So good an ability that it got clarified years ago smile.gif

Write a miracle list that puts the minor sphere stuff you want on, remember there is no point putting on Major Sphere stuff from other Spheres if you are going to Devote. Which you are.

Buy all your devotion innates, devote to the tree and get the cheap standard non-standard to stop buying res innates or use them as something lower down the tree.

If you end up doing a 3 day or other extended length, buy greater aware med. Until then, don't bother. Buy double med and wizard med, should be fine, half the time on an extended length there will be some sort of med buff anyway because waiting until midnight to do the section is dull. Consider buying a cheap thing to let you med back innates if you think you will be wasting med time otherwise.

Buy spiritual healer or a non-standard version for survival. Also gives spirits, so win / win, and will let you buy Healing Sphere innates later cheaply, because you have Devotion and Devotion wins.

In answer to your other question, I don't like Vessel because it feels like a constant OOC mechanic interfering with my immersion. That's meant to sound less precious than it does, but basically I mean that constantly thinking about how much time I've had for the spirits that can only be used for certain stuff to regen, and the fact that I can only use certain spirits for certain spirits, is a distraction I don't find helpful. It could be argued that its no different from having healing-only spirits, but as a healer you are casting most of your spirits on healing anyway and tend to burn through that specific pool first so it rarely if ever matters. Also, again, I don't think its as good as Devotion smile.gif

C

Thank you Christine. That makes a lot of sense as does your reason for not liking the Vessel MC

Posted by: Martinj Apr 21 2017, 05:35 PM

I think the answer to the question depends very much on whether it's for caves, 3 days or myths, what level you'll be and what your play style is. The make up of the rest of the party is a big influencer too.

As a dedicated healer on a caves dungeon, I'd go devotion - as you often won't cast much healing right at the start of the day. On a 3 day I'd consider adding Vessel - depending on how much room there is in your spend (in a 3k spend it's probably a no brainer - as it opens you up for blesses and Comms and the odd dismiss). If you have a free social guild, you could consider joining blunt club for greater aware med twice a day and then buy double med rate, pure med, a med burst and calming herbs for 21 spirits back into your main pool 3/day.

On Myths last year I thought long and hard about Vessel vs Med. I took med for a number of reasons (overall cost was about the same, for x4 med): more breaks on a myths (including the odd 15mins during RP or wardings), I tend to cast masses in big bursts rather than a little over time, there was a dedicated healer (and a few spiritless/Druids) - so I was healing support, I had big power ups to cast first thing in the morning and med back the power, I cast quite a lot of non-HB stuff.

Posted by: Ferro Apr 21 2017, 06:42 PM

Lots to consider. Really appreciate all the opinions.

For me, I'll be looking at doing major sphere healing and major sphere benediction. While I appreciate the majority of my spirits will be spent on healing, I also want to be able to buff.

I am currently only a couple of hundred points and will be trying to get to 3k for the July 4 day so yes, it's for an extended length but I'm doing lots of cave dungeons to get there.


Posted by: Christine Apr 21 2017, 07:02 PM

QUOTE(Ferro @ Apr 21 2017, 07:42 PM) *
Lots to consider. Really appreciate all the opinions.

For me, I'll be looking at doing major sphere healing and major sphere benediction. While I appreciate the majority of my spirits will be spent on healing, I also want to be able to buff.

I am currently only a couple of hundred points and will be trying to get to 3k for the July 4 day so yes, it's for an extended length but I'm doing lots of cave dungeons to get there.


In which case Devotion isn't an option, so Vessel probably looks a lot better than it would normally. Spiritual Healer (or variant) and Vessel, in that order, perhaps? Your Vessel and SH healer spirits will cover most healing and that leaves the rest for Benediction.

In the alternative you could try for the fairly standard non standard (as in I've seen it a fair few times) of "may cast major sphere miracles from second major sphere despite devotion restrictions", but my versions of that were I think T11. That may have been just when I applied for them though, as second major sphere is T11 - if as you suggest you are going to have 2 major spheres before then it might be an option.

None of which should be interpreted as teaching anyone to suck eggs, I'm just trying to get out of the packing I am supposed to be doing and hiding from the children smile.gif

C

Posted by: Carlo Apr 21 2017, 08:24 PM

QUOTE(Christine @ Apr 21 2017, 08:02 PM) *
In which case Devotion isn't an option, so Vessel probably looks a lot better than it would normally. Spiritual Healer (or variant) and Vessel, in that order, perhaps? Your Vessel and SH healer spirits will cover most healing and that leaves the rest for Benediction.

In the alternative you could try for the fairly standard non standard (as in I've seen it a fair few times) of "may cast major sphere miracles from second major sphere despite devotion restrictions", but my versions of that were I think T11. That may have been just when I applied for them though, as second major sphere is T11 - if as you suggest you are going to have 2 major spheres before then it might be an option.

None of which should be interpreted as teaching anyone to suck eggs, I'm just trying to get out of the packing I am supposed to be doing and hiding from the children smile.gif

C


Second major sphere is table 10 these days, and you can get a third on 11 if you're bracket pure I think smile.gif

Ps - I hate vessel too.

Posted by: Christine Apr 21 2017, 08:28 PM

Really? Then there's an error in the new books cos I checked under spheres sad.gif Good to know though.

C

Posted by: Carlo Apr 21 2017, 08:41 PM

QUOTE(Christine @ Apr 21 2017, 09:28 PM) *
Really? Then there's an error in the new books cos I checked under spheres sad.gif Good to know though.

C


I'm reading page 41?

Maybe somewhere else in the books it wasn't updated? What page are you reading?

smile.gif

Posted by: Christine Apr 21 2017, 09:09 PM

QUOTE(Carlo @ Apr 21 2017, 09:41 PM) *
I'm reading page 41?

Maybe somewhere else in the books it wasn't updated? What page are you reading?

smile.gif


Ah no I'm wrong, misread the reference to t11 in the sentence below.

I remember when I used to have a less tragic existence than checking rulebooks on a Friday night smile.gif

C

Posted by: JasonE Apr 21 2017, 10:27 PM

There's one major flaw with regen, you can't sleep through most of an adventure sad.gif

Posted by: dnsmantra Apr 21 2017, 10:46 PM

On the flip side of the med vs regen thing, one thing I did really like was the Torsland myths med-burst approach. Two people had miracles of med-burst (self/other) and every 3 hours they'd cast it a bunch, people would sit down for 15 mins and then be back out on section again. Was a super good way to make the most of med and cram in as many sections as possible.

If you want to go the med route, this is a super nice and convenient way of doing it.

Huw

Posted by: BBB Apr 21 2017, 11:51 PM

QUOTE(JasonE @ Apr 21 2017, 11:27 PM) *
There's one major flaw with regen, you can't sleep through most of an adventure sad.gif


You've never adventured with Kevin Rye as Thyrn then I take it? wink.gif

BBB

Posted by: RichardCraig Apr 24 2017, 08:29 AM

Both love and hate vessel, it's great because it allows you to do stuff all day long it's bad because it means you need a stop watch.

I personally think you should just get 12 spirits at the start of the hour, much easier to ref and people aren't constantly asking for time checks.

Also go priest of the runes as this bypasses all of the down sides as you can cast advanced and store power from the go.

I've bought it as everything currently, only one spend that I did which didn't have it in was when I was all about casting big 8 hour advanced miracles and so med was better.

Posted by: BBB Apr 24 2017, 09:36 AM

QUOTE(RichardCraig @ Apr 24 2017, 09:29 AM) *
I personally think you should just get 12 spirits at the start of the hour, much easier to ref and people aren't constantly asking for time checks.


I like this suggestion a lot. It solves the "OOC"-ness of the ability that has been pointed out.

BBB

Posted by: RichFromant Apr 24 2017, 09:53 AM

Like a lot of people I think the spirit regen is very good, and probably a bit too cheap for how good it is for the points. Will almost always get more spirits from that then med on normal dungeons. Combo'ed with priest of the runes it is very strong.

The other issue with it is is the tendency to rely on real world time passing rather then actual IC time, eg when battleboarding and since you can't med in a time faff normally, and shouldn't regen either. The ref should tell you how long of actual dungeon you have had rather then places relying on only time or actual time checks. Is one of the reasons why I don't like the 12 power back on the hour style of regen abilities. Could have spent 15 minutes of that hour battleboarding and faffing

Posted by: gormaden Apr 24 2017, 10:01 AM

Rich, where as I can see what you saying, I agree with Craigy's view. Simplifying things allows you focus on IC, and on a slight tangent I feel that time "faff" should be seen as IC time.

Of course this also takes into account Rule 7.

Posted by: dnsmantra Apr 24 2017, 10:23 AM

QUOTE(RichFromant @ Apr 24 2017, 10:53 AM) *
Is one of the reasons why I don't like the 12 power back on the hour style of regen abilities. Could have spent 15 minutes of that hour battleboarding and faffing


That way logistical nightmares lie. Just balance how much it costs in points to how much power you get back real world time. Simplicity is the way forward; the system is complex enough as it is without making things more complex - 12 on the hour is a good approach, as is just looking at having done ~3 hours and what you cast and roughly how spread out it was and then doing the math of total cast vs total regen.

Medding and time faff isn't a great example, since if you're had 15 consecutive mins of time faff (which you'd need to benefit from med) something has gone seriously wrong with dungeon logistics.

Huw

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